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Author Topic: Eastwood Movie Challenge, Week Seventeen: City Heat, Pale Rider  (Read 10399 times)
higashimori
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2016, 09:42:19 PM »


 " Vanessa in the Garden "
talks about a painter who live encouraged by the ghost of his Vannesa, loving wife died in an accident!
I knew nothing about this short story. So it was surprised for me that Sondra Locke was the role of Vanessa!!
And after that,collaboration with Clint and Louck was finished?  :angel:
Lennie Niehaus's musical score was beautiful!  :)

 I watched that with this Link. 
 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x49nwh4_amazing-stories-112-vanessa-in-the-garden_fun

 

 
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KC
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2016, 10:18:21 PM »

Lennie Niehaus's musical score was beautiful!  :)

With a little help from John Williams and Richard Wagner. ;)
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Matt
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2016, 10:35:00 PM »

I like Megan's dog, but I noticed the shot of the dead dog looked really horrible.



Really scruffy, not at all the same.  :-[
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-satu-
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« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 11:46:21 AM »

Matt said Pale Rider would have maybe been better without the character if Megan. That made me think that I really enjoyed the entrance scene of Preacher, Megan praying at the same time.

I sometimes thought that Preacher might have survived those shots in his back and that made him finalise Stockburn with a final shot in the head.

But then again, wouldn't Stockburn recognize him from a distance if it was him (and not the avenging ghost)? Now he only recognizes him from his eyes. He seems somehow surprised, so even if he thought of him earlier, I don't think Stockburn knew it was him. That makes me think it's his ghost. Changed appearance somehow.

The Megan-Sarah-Preacher situation is a bit disturbing but I'm glad Preacher didn't go for Megan. I think it might have normal at some point, to get married at 15, but now it only seems wrong.
 I would have been even happier if his morals would have made him back off from Sarah too. Felt sorry for Hull. I'm glad they didn't make that scene any longer. This film didn't need that. I would have liked to think Preacher as this wanderer who had only one purpose- to get revenge. Do you think he knew Stockburn would arrive to this little town and came just for him?

Good western, I enjoyed it.
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Could anyone else have seen the beauty of it?
Matt
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« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2016, 11:52:30 AM »

Great questions, Satu.  I hope we get some more posts in this thread, because although I don't think we can actually get at any answers, it's interesting to share our different interpretations of who Preacher is, and why he's there.
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Jed Cooper
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« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2016, 12:18:35 PM »

Perhaps there's more to Preacher here:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0446327670/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?qid=1464117343&sr=1-4&pi=CB192198896_AA75_QL70&keywords=Pale+Rider

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Description
A mysterious preacher protects a humble prospector village from a greedy mining company trying to encroach on their land.
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Matt
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« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2016, 01:13:29 PM »

Well, we're trying to go beyond the obvious here.
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Jed Cooper
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« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2016, 03:27:56 PM »

Well, we're trying to go beyond the obvious here.

Sure, understandable but the obvious is what's established on film.  I haven't read the book but am guessing there's more of a backstory to Preacher and Stockburn within those pages.  I'm sure it'll be an interesting read.  I wonder if anyone else here has.
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KC
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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2016, 07:05:47 PM »

It was an original screenplay. The book is a novelization, that is, it was based on the screenplay. There isn't any back story in the book that was cut out of the movie, though it's possible that the author may have made up some scenes if he thought more exposition would make the book read better.
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Jed Cooper
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« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2016, 07:16:43 PM »

That's interesting. I'm going to see if it's available through the library networks I'm connected to.
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KC
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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2016, 08:07:03 PM »

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Jed Cooper
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2016, 05:15:02 AM »

No luck via the library networks.  It's currently going for a whopping .01 on Amazon, though:  Amazon

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The Man With No Aim
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2016, 03:10:53 AM »

Great questions, Satu.  I hope we get some more posts in this thread, because although I don't think we can actually get at any answers, it's interesting to share our different interpretations of who Preacher is, and why he's there.

I am curious.

There has been much discussion in other threads re Preacher, by myself, and, others, much of it very insightful and genuinely inquiring into the very questions you still now raise.

What are your reasons for rejecting and ignoring all the previous points raised concerning Preacher?

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Matt
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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2016, 08:51:28 AM »

I haven't read all those threads yet, and a lot of our members (especially newer ones) wouldn't have either. So if I'm raising points already brought up, you can either answer here, or post links to the other discussions. That would be appreciated.

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Doug
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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2016, 12:04:07 PM »

I am curious.

There has been much discussion in other threads re Preacher, by myself, and, others, much of it very insightful and genuinely inquiring into the very questions you still now raise.

What are your reasons for rejecting and ignoring all the previous points raised concerning Preacher?

The Man

In the two and a half months since your previous post, I don't know how this site survived without your invaluable input. No, seriously. I don't know how we did it.
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Matt
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« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2016, 10:12:55 PM »



I watched Vanessa in the Garden tonight. What an oddity this is in Clint's filmography. I'd never seen it before, nor the television show Amazing Stories. I thought it would be an hour long show, and within a few minutes of watching, was grateful to look at the time left and realize it was only 24 minutes long. And that was plenty. It wasn't so awful for the fact that it was short. But, what's surprising is how unthrilling it is, when you have so many great names attached to it.

I have to admit that I had never looked into this title enough to even realize that Harvey Keitel had worked with Clint. This guy is great! I love everything I've seen him do. And you know, he's not bad here. He's the saving grace.

I also didn't even know that Sondra Locke would be in this, so that was also a surprise. Her part is pretty simple for her, and she probably didn't need to prepare for it, or do anything special. There's a short part of a scene where she sings, and I recognized her singing... I was glad it was a very short scene.

But maybe the biggest blight was Beau Bridges! Oh my god, he was awful.

I never did figure out if they were in England, or if their odd accents were just the way Americans were supposed to speak back in the early 1900's (my guess on the time period).

As for the directing, it was TV, so I guess they all just called it in. There's a scene of a lightning crash, and it literally looks like someone threw a $1 firework at a tree. It was so bad!

But, after watching, I can honestly say it's something all true Clint fans should watch. It's ONLY 24 minutes, and it's one of the strangest things I've seen Clint involved in.
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Matt
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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2016, 09:35:50 AM »

I was recently asked to use more of my spare time reading the board so I can know more of the pertinent information that people here have posted instead of asking the same questions already raised. And although I spend a lot of time reading the board, it's true I still haven't caught up on all eight years of posts that I missed during my time away. But, I want everyone here to know that no one should be required to read every post on a board before posting, especially one that has been around for fourteen years like this one. We would have no conversation whatsoever if everyone was afraid to write something because it may have been said before. So, if anyone posts a question or a comment that's been said before, just respond with a quote or a link if you don't want to reiterate the answers to those questions.

I looked through various Pale Rider threads to see if the question I raised had been discussed before.  And the question isn't "Who/what is Preacher when he comes back?"  The question is "Who was Preacher before he was killed?" And yes I'm going with the interpretation that Preacher is a spirit, returned from the dead.

And I did find this really awesome post from a "one-hit wonder"... a member who came by, spent all of 6 minutes on the board, made one great post, and was never seen again (cue the eerie music from the beginning of Pale Rider).

The Preacher is Sarah's husband returned, whether he is a ghost or not - that is why she is startled to see not only his minister's collar but his face - watch the scene again.  She is at first startled then a sort of recognition happens, she veils her gaze with pleasantries.  It happens whenever she looks at Preacher throughout the movie.  This is reflected in the awkward way they behave around each other - he has found his wife and daughter but they are not alone, they have a protector who tells him that the  husband/father deserted them.  The husband/father is not expected back, nor would he probably be welcome back again.  After he has washed up for dinner, Preacher plays a little mind game with Sarah through polite conversation at the table, and she has to respond to his verbal cues.

He is a stranger to them, but Sarah recognizes something about him through the years that have aged them and changed them.  He is protective of Megan as a virtuous minister should be, and he rejects her romantic overtures because she is underage AND he is a 'minister'.  BUT - watch his face whenever he is with her.  Do you see the pain that he expresses since he cannot have more detailed or revealing conversations with Megan?   He is her father, but cannot tell her.  He is doubly unable to tell them whether they think he is dead or if he is indeed dead, a spirit called back to protect and avenge.  Have you ever seen the awkwardness of a father who sees his children for the first time in years, and they have grown up without him?

Watch the facial expressions, body language, and gestures when he is in scenes with the women.  Acting is more than dialogue.  The visual assessment of the situation, the glances and the gazes between Sarah & Preacher... they know each other and cannot speak of it.  This is why it is not immoral for Sarah and the Preacher to be behind closed doors together; they are/were married.  This is why Sarah tells him he reminds her of someone who left her once before - she needs a man who will NOT leave her again, "... and you would leave, wouldn't you?"  They look at each other - She kisses him because she doesn't want to be haunted by memories and longing for him after he leaves her lovelorn- again.  He tells her to close the door because it is the only time they will ever have alone together in the foreseeable future.  He could be killed going to town to fight Stockburn, and if he survives he will leave the area again, as he told her.  She will marry Hull and have stability in her life.  This is the resolution to their relationship.  When she asks him, "Who are you?" she is seeking confirmation that he IS a different man than the one who left her and Megan years before.  She is also seeking to have him deny who he WAS - "It doesn't really matter...", he answered.  it cannot matter because he will soon be gone, like a wisp of memory.

My observation does not negate anything that Clint said about the character being a spirit or ghostlike.  it merely deepens the character.

That's something I've never considered. Could Sarah's husband had been killed, rather than just leave? And if so, does Sarah even know her husband is dead? It seems strange he's always described as "leaving" if he was deceased.

As I wrote in my post above, I've thought Sarah's husband was a Native American. I don't think that a Native American in that era would be accepted as a collar-wearing preacher. I'm going to assume that prejudices and fear would never have allowed that kind of acceptance into a white community.  However...  the only two pieces of information I have that led me to that assumption were the casting of Megan and Sarah's line that her parents objected to whom she married.  But, it's possible her parents objected because he was a preacher, and marrying him would lead to a pauper's lifestyle (perhaps she's from a more affluent background).  But more likely, they objected because he had a violent past (more on this coming).  As for Megan's heritage, maybe she was orphaned and adopted by the preacher and his wife.  There is that slightly odd line of Sarah's "you are the prettiest daughter I could ever have".  And she looks nothing like Sarah, so I've always wondered if she was her birth mother.  Or, maybe it was just indiscriminate casting of Megan, and nothing more.

If Preacher was a preacher in his previous life (and Sarah's husband/Megan's father), then why is he such a great gunslinger, and how do we explain the safe deposit box with his guns and holsters?  So, combining Starfire D's interpretation with mine (that Preacher was a Stockburn deputy), here's what I come up with....

Preacher was a Stockburn deputy, who met Sarah, fell in love, and with her influence, turned over a new leaf. He retired his guns and took up the preacher's collar. He wouldn't have been a fearful man -- he rallied communities to fight oppression, and most likely, Coy LaHood's oppression in particular.  Stockburn was hired to kill his own previous deputy when he got in the way of LaHood's progress. The preacher realized Stockburn and the deputies were coming for him, so before they came to town, he left his wife and daughter so their lives wouldn't be in danger. They never knew why he left. Ever since, Sarah has a hard time trusting men, expecting anyone could just up and leave her, thus her fear of falling in love again and settling down with Hull.

Now, let's look at LaHood -- did he know the preacher previously? Or did he only know of him?

Quote
COY LAHOOD:  A preacher?! You let a preacher into Carbon Canyon?! ... When I left for Sacramento, those Tin Pans had all but given up. Their spirit was nearly broken, and a man without spirit is whipped! But a preacher?  He could give them faith! Sh*t!  One ounce of faith, they'll be dug in deeper than ticks on a hound. You boys, you go throw a rope around that man. You bring him to me.  No, no, we get too rough, we'll make a martyr out of him. We don't want to give them a martyr.

One way or the other, it sounds like a man who's had this problem with a preacher before.

And what about Stockburn?  Here's the scene between him and Coy LaHood:

Quote
LAHOOD:  It's too bad, for a while there, I had them buffaloed. Then this preacher come along who shot them all up with sass.

STOCKBURN:  Preacher?

LAHOOD:  You take care of him, along with the rest. Made me look bad in front of my men. He whipped four of them.

STOCKBURN:  A preacher did that?

LAHOOD:  Damn right he did.

STOCKBURN:  What did this preacher look like?

LAHOOD:  He was tall, lean. His eyes... yeah, his eyes. Something strange about 'em. That mean something to you?

STOCKBURN:  Sounds like a man I once knew.

LAHOOD:  Might be. He recognized your name.

STOCKBURN:  Couldn't be.  The man I'm thinking about is dead.

From this last exchange, and the meeting between Preacher and Coy LaHood (which I didn't quote from, but where they met face to face, and LaHood only showed a sign of recognition when he could see Preacher's eyes), we can assume that Preacher doesn't look like he did in his previous life. But, he has the same build, and the same eyes and expressions.

This interpretation feels so right, that the whole movie makes sense to me now. The strange friction and attraction between Preacher and Megan and Preacher and Sarah, Sarah's difficulty answering Hull about their future together while Preacher was still in town -- it's more than there just being a stranger in town... it's a man whose presence to her husband is so strong, she can't resist that connection. This interpretation also makes Pale Rider almost a perfect combination of Unforgiven and High Plains Drifter (Munny turning over a new leaf when he met his wife, becoming a family man, settling down, until his past calls him back to his gun-for-hire lifestyle, combined with the supernatural elements of HPD).

So, if anyone has any more thoughts, just keep adding them. Again, we can't arrive at absolute answers because there are none, but taking the information we have from the movie, we can arrive at a few possible theories... and that's fun. :)


« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 02:44:20 PM by Matt » Logged
Matt
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2016, 02:36:12 PM »

Earlier, I also asked about Club:


Was he going to stop the almost rape of Megan when he pushed his way through? It might explain why he would save Preacher later on, when he lowered Josh LaHood's rifle. But then Preacher threw a stick of dynamite in the house where all the men were sleeping, so you gotta wonder why Club was protecting him.

And I found this good post today:

Why did Club so quickly change his ways and become one of the good guys? This is obvious from his first encounter with the Preacher. After he gets throttled, the Preacher doesn't gloat or pound on him even further. Instead he assists him to his feet and helps him onto his horse, as if it was all just a misunderstanding. That gesture goes a long way on the emotions of Club.

Then in their next encounter at the La Hood mining camp, we see Club attempting to break up the assault on young Megan. Suddenly the Preacher appears and puts an end to it all with a few gun shots. Once more, Club sees the better half of humanity.
And then the following day, he gets a chance to redeem himself both personally and in the eyes of the Preacher when he interveens just when Josh La Hood has the drop on the Preacher.
So, to sum up:

Club is a gentle giant who only fell into his role as a 'leg breaker' to survive. The Preacher brings out his true inner self and gives him a new direction in life.
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2016, 06:20:16 PM »

I really, really like Starfire D's interpretation. I wonder why he never posted again here?
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Matt
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2016, 07:43:51 AM »

There's also a line in the meeting between Preacher and Coy LaHood where they're discussing buying out the miners at $1,000 a head.  Preacher says "Stockburn and his deputies will cost you more than that."  LaHood looks surprised. This little piece of inside information isn't something most anyone would just guess. I also take that as a hint that he was once one of the deputies. He knew how much they were paid.
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