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Author Topic: High Plains Drifter: Was The Rape Scene Really Necessary  (Read 70040 times)
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2002, 08:53:27 PM »

Originally posted by Matt, 12-18-2001 06:23 AM

Agreed, bigdai.
Check out Tightrope for a scene where Eastwood's character isn't the rapist, but the father of a potential rape victim. Amanda Block (played by Eastwood's own daughter, Alison) wasn't raped, but Wes knows it could have happened. His rage, and the feelings of guilt he has for possibly endangering his own teenage daughter's welfare is very evident. The scene where Wes finds Amanda handcuffed and gagged is one of the most heart-stopping moments in all of Eastwood. It definitely explores the other side of the rape issue... from a victim's point of view.
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2002, 08:55:03 PM »

Originally posted by bdc28, 12-18-2001 08:40 AM

Hey GMAT,
I will respect your first paragraph of your post, as the movie is up for interpretation. Many saw that, I personally didnt. Great thing about movies, there is no definable "thing" that movies prove. Personally I think if you (not you specifically) have to learn values from a movie, go smack your parents around for awhile.

The second portion..."As for your other issue, we agreed not to rape and kill one another when we entered the "social contract" (i.e. I give up my right to kill in exchange for society protecting my right to not be killed)"...

What are you talking about? The social contract? There is no social contract that is universal and uniform. No such kind. There arent even uniform EATING utensils on all continents, and we are supposed to agree on something that large? There is no such thing, except idealistically, its something we hope to achieve, which basically means, we havent, and probably wont.

Man has the ability to be both the kindest and cruelest beast, sometimes within the same 20 second span. Lil_Bill's posts are significant of what the problem is. If there is something wrong, DONT TALK ABOUT IT..IGNORE IT..it will go away.

Well, guess what guys, it doesnt. You are just as inherently evil as you are good. If there is a person on this board that is going to lie and say they havent wished ill will on another person on this planet..well live your lie. The problem has always been shunning a part of you that gives you just as much life as your "good" side. I bet your feelings about murder wouldnt be so pure if it was an invader in your house and you had to defend your family...you wouldnt think twice about it. But, its still murder.

IMO, terms like the "social contract" hide what we really dont want to deal with. We are part animal, by nature, and cannot seem to find a way to get that pesky "agressive/regressive" gene out of the pool. The truth is we need it, to survive, to achieve. The fact that a few malcontents are born with that gene, or mental defect, that brings that gene to be more dominant than the passive gene (which we would consider to be the normal one) does not make their actions wrong. The actions are older than you, and will exist longer than you will. Truth of the matter is, LIFE causes pain. If you live, you have to experience pain to know it, and ultimately, you will die. That is the "LIFE CONTRACT" that is not something that is a concept...unless you can introduce me to someone that has lived to be a thousand with no pain.
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2002, 08:56:17 PM »

Originally posted by bdc28, 12-18-2001 08:47 AM

And lil bill, FYI. I wasnt condoning it, I was discussing it. I dont condone anything. If you are going to discuss my posts, at least do me a favor and try to read them for what they are meant before you start ripping them apart.
If it were up to me, a rapist wouldnt make it to the judge.
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2002, 08:59:16 PM »

Originally posted by Conan, 12-18-2001 10:46 AM

I agree with your basic point BDC, but murder is the unlawful killing of a person - assuming your using the legal definition. Whereas if I have to use lethal force to defend myself/family (per your example), it is self defense and within the law.

Oh, and in response to your complaints "Little" Bill:
« Last Edit: December 25, 2002, 10:23:50 AM by Xichado » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2002, 09:01:08 PM »

Originally posted by bdc28, 12-18-2001 11:04 AM

LOVE that smiley Conan!!!
Well, that is partially my point. One is the law of man, and one is the law of nature. The law of nature ALWAYS beats the law of man, no matter how hard we resist it. In the two scenarios that you painted, both are the taking of a life. Its just in one case, we condone it, in another we do not.

In my book, if you believe the law, you conduct yourself as such, even if it works against you. Ghandi, MLK, and Jesus Christ wouldnt even dream of raising their hands to another, even if it meant their own life (which in two of the three cases it did). But even as spiritual a message as these people brought, they could not stop the genetic coding in us that says.."kill, hurt".

We, as people can set laws against it, to govern ourselves. But, we cant get to the root of it. We cant make people stop inherently. THAT is the law of nature. Its the reason that all other animals kill each other as well (lions fighting over territory). Conflict is what brought the universe together. Harmony, is actually the temporary state if you think about it relatively.
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2002, 09:02:54 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-18-2001 11:04 AM

Man has the ability to be both the kindest and cruelest beast, sometimes within the same 20 second span. Lil_Bill's posts are significant of what the problem is. If there is something wrong, DONT TALK ABOUT IT..IGNORE IT..it will go away.
i don't think it will go away but speaking about it so matter of factly and coldly leads me to believe you people are somhow detached from the real world. if we are only animals as your previous posts seem to imply then we can't help beimg emotionally involved with anything, sorry for being human, i'll leave you removed people to your little web-board, you're well suited for each other.
ps you never responded to the point about someone who had fallen victim to one of these atttrocities reading your posts
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« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2002, 09:06:50 PM »

Originally posted by bdc28, 12-18-2001 11:15 AM

No problem little bill, I will.
I have NEVER believed that removing dialog about an issue is something that benefits anyone. I personally have openly spoken about the atrocities I have both seen and been the "victim" of by living in a lower class area.

The reason people go to therapy is to open up a dialog about the feelings they have, so as not to do the first reaction, out of shame, and bottle it up and allow it to manifest itself into something else, like rage, or a suicidal tendency.

I dont openly speak about things because of my lack of regard of other people, quite the opposite. I hope someone may read my posts and say "Hey, he aint all that smart, but he knows what I am feeling", and maybe take something from it. To a degree, a LARGE degree, a part of healing from that process is being able to seperate yourself from the incident, or else emotionally you are doomed to repeat it over and over again.

If you consider this sick, so be it. Cruel, your opinion. But I have never "stopped talking" if what I had to say, I felt needed to be tabled. No disrespect, but I dont really care if you do or dont like what I am saying. I would rather you did, but I wont lose sleep if you dont. If it is inciting you too much to read it, honestly, dont. Its not meant to hurt, its a rhetorical conversation. Im not talking about anyone specific, nor passing judgement. If you deem it to be, maybe you should ask yourself why you are so touchy about it. I dont see anyone other than you passing judgement on the other people on this board.
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« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2002, 09:08:43 PM »

Originally posted by Conan, 12-18-2001 11:58 AM

The History Channel is "exhibit A" to your point BDC. Seems like every other show on there is about war or implements of war. Sadly, this is our history.
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2002, 09:19:08 PM »

Originally posted by bigdai, 12-18-2001 01:11 PM

Exactly that. If nobody said anything incase others were offended then society would be worse for it. MLK and Jesus were mentioned earlier, didn't they say things that upset people or at the very least disagreed with. I am not saying we should seek to offend people but if you are stating your argument while discussing something and you do, so be it. Isn't that politics. The issues in the film that have been discussed are not taken lightly which is the whole point. The original argument was: Is there any need for the rape seen? People have responded and if you read those postings they hardly making light of the subject or seek to offend.
Aristotle said 'man is a political animal' and we are. That is why we don't climb trees any more, we have a mind to think about 'touchy' subjects. Not just ignore them because as was said they don't go away.

Can we get back to the subject of the link now? It was interesting.

By the way nice violin!
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« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2002, 09:20:31 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-19-2001 12:40 AM

y'all seem to be misssing the point. talking about whether it should have been included is one thing but i was geniunley shocked at the conversation about rape being part of the natural world and the whole be shot or be raped debate.c'mon people if u think it should have been included or not say so, but some areas of the debate about justifying it wasn't completely necessary. anyway enough of this . It's 6 days to christams lets try and focus on the positive aspects of life OK.
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« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2002, 09:51:22 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-19-2001 12:42 AM

If you consider this sick, so be it. Cruel, your opinion
hey you remember what callaghan said about opinions? :)
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« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2002, 09:53:57 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-19-2001 12:55 AM

"Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Wile E. Coyote, super genius".

ok so bdc lets put all this (insert rude word of your choice here) -happy KC-  ;) BEHIND us and like you said get back to discussing the point. i didn't like the scene personally but then the film wasn't made JUST for me- in fact i wasn't even born when it was made- but they put it in for a reason alright and who am i to argue with the guys who made the film? it's still a great western though. interstingly there was a poll of all time films over here recently and DRIFTER topped HIGH NOON by 1 place.
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« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2002, 08:11:19 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-19-2001 12:55 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Conan:
The History Channel is "exhibit A" to your point BDC. Seems like every other show on there is about war or implements of war. Sadly, this is our history.

hey come on now thats not true. sure some of the biggets events in our history have been war, but what about the other 1900 years of history (i'm taking it that the most significant wars add up to roughly 100 years of our history), what about the discovery of penicillin(?) the moon landings, the founding of the new world(by colombus-kinda-)for all the evil and hatred in the world there is twice as much happiness and joy(NO i'm not a hippy) but if thats your outlook on life it's hard to keep going. an awful lot of good has happened and can be done by one person. try thinking of that any time you get depressed it really helps you pick up.
finally do me a favour if u ever feel down go to the video store and rent frank capra's ' It's a Wonderful Life' cause it's the ULTIMATE feel good movie, and remember there's a lot of good in our history and our present sadly it's not deemed newsworthy by the media and is kept from us, there IS a lot of carnage and war in our history, but hey they were mistakes and SOMEDAY we'll learn from them and be a better civilistaion. so if you only do one thing (and i understand that this can be hard sometimes)always have HOPE!
remember what louis said "what a wonderful world"
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« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2002, 08:38:02 PM »

Originally posted by bdc28, 12-19-2001 05:52 AM

Hey Lil Bill,
Okay, lets remove the "adversarial" portion of the conversation, as I am beginning to sound like the ultimate depressionist, and I will try to put things in a different perspective, and then shock the hell out of everybody at the end of the statement. :)

I honestly believe that the best of man COMES from his darkest side. There cannot be a good without an evil, period. The word good would not have come up without the need to seperate it from the other. I get in this debate about religion all the time...let me give an example (promise not to ruffle feathers here).

I once said that God is as inherently good as he is evil. A friend of mine that is highly religious got very upset at me and questioned why I said that. I asked them if it didnt say in the book "God is the creator"? They agreed. I then asked "Well, who created evil?" They paused, then said "Satan". I said "Wait, I will agree that Satan HARNESSED evil, but if he cant create, who really made it"?

See, the hard part of life, in my opinion, has always been the forgiveness part. Forgiving, and EMBRACING, our dark side, our enemies, our God, for being what we both wanted to be, and for going against us. Sometimes, those pills are very hard to swallow. But in fact, if you no longer deny that you have a dark side, and embrace it, you can use what used to be "blind rage" as "focused business sense". But you have to unbind yourself. When your sister is dying of cancer, you dont look to God and say "Why are you abandoning my sister?", you trust he left pain and suffering in the equation for a reason, and despite the pain it makes you feel, you forgive yourself for feeling it, and to a degree, forgive HIM for causing it. You can accept anything life can throw you at that point.

And to answer the question, I thought the rape scene was TOTALLY inappropriate (told you I would surprise you). Yes it did go to prove that the stranger was amoral, but I truly believe alot of that was already said, and that there were other ways to say it without such a graphic violation.

IMO.
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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2002, 08:39:19 PM »

Originally posted by Conan, 12-19-2001 06:33 AM

I never said there weren't other great human accomplishments Bill, nor did I say anything about my "outlook on life". Yes, it would be hard to keep going if you focused on the fact that there is always some kind of war or conflict going on in the world.
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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2002, 08:42:07 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by bdc28:
Hey Lil Bill,
I once said that God is as inherently good as he is evil. A friend of mine that is highly religious got very upset at me and questioned why I said that. I asked them if it didnt say in the book "God is the creator"? They agreed. I then asked "Well, who created evil?" They paused, then said "Satan". I said "Wait, I will agree that Satan HARNESSED evil, but if he cant create, who really made it"?
See, the hard part of life, in my opinion, has always been the forgiveness part. Forgiving, and EMBRACING, our dark side, our enemies, our God, for being what we both wanted to be, and for going against us. Sometimes, those pills are very hard to swallow. But in fact, if you no longer deny that you have a dark side, and embrace it, you can use what used to be "blind rage" as "focused business sense". But you have to unbind yourself. When your sister is dying of cancer, you dont look to God and say "Why are you abandoning my sister?", you trust he left pain and suffering in the equation for a reason, and despite the pain it makes you feel, you forgive yourself for feeling it, and to a degree, forgive HIM for causing it. You can accept anything life can throw you at that point.

ehhh? yeah i'm with you guys?
 ;) (straight out of oh brother where are thou)
ok, it was a bit too theological for me, as in straining my neck, as in over my head, i amn't very good with religion but i kinda get what you're saying
and hey conan, go on, rent the movie anyway IT'S CHRISTMAS
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« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2002, 08:44:05 PM »

Originally posted by bigdai, 12-19-2001 08:49 AM

Bdc28, Nice argument but... what if there is no God?
Also, did you know that being a Jedi has now been recognised as an offical religion in the U.K. following the 2001 census. That is what i've heard on the news anyway but I don't have any confirmation.  :o

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« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2002, 08:46:59 PM »

Originally posted by Hombre, 12-19-2001 09:38 PM

That seems to be something of an urban myth, Bigdai. The first results of the Census won't be published until mid 2002, with the main results (incl. religions and all the rest of it) not appearing before this time next year.
I must admit I also heard that the Star Wars fraternity in the UK were going to try for it but there's no way of knowing how successful they were just yet.

Now what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, I once saw "It's A Wonderful Life" but found it way too corny and sentimental for my tastes. And don't bother jumping down my throat anybody, I already know I'm going straight to Hell for saying that.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: gen_max ]
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« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2002, 08:51:24 PM »

Originally posted by KC, 12-19-2001 10:24 PM

Quote
Originally posted by gen_max:

Now what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, I once saw "It's A Wonderful Life" but found it way too corny and sentimental for my tastes. And don't bother jumping down my throat anybody, I already know I'm going straight to Hell for saying that.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: gen_max ]

Nah, gen_max ... only to Lago ...   ;)

KC
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« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2002, 08:53:47 PM »

Originally posted by bigdai, 12-20-2001 01:33 AM

Gen_max i'm going to Lago with you, what a load of rubbish. It's on the same heap as The Sound of Music and Shane.
Controversy, i like it!  :o  :o
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