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Author Topic: Rifle in Joe Kidd  (Read 11567 times)
GunLover
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« on: December 28, 2003, 09:33:10 AM »

Wondering if anybody knows what the rifle/scope was that clint used in the scene were he shoots the man off the rock?  Love that scene.  Gun kind of looks like a Winchester 54.  Anybody got any info there?

Thanks
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John Omohundro
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2004, 06:44:54 PM »

GunLover:

Like you, I've been trying to identify the two rifles used in that sequence for YEARS--practically since the time I first saw the film, approximately 20 years ago.

I've no SPECIFIC information on that subject, but from its appearance, I think the rifle in question was a sporterized Mauser military rifle of some sort. In fact, if you look closely at the rifle in the scene in which it's actually FIRED, you'll notice that it has a military-style tangent rear sight just in front of the forward mount base for the telescopic sight. The scope MAY be a Lyman Model 5-A or Winchester Model A-5 (they were virtually identical, the second being essentially a license-built copy of the first), which was a fixed-power 4-power scope with external adjustments made during the 1950s (a rather obvious error in a film supposedly taking place in the New Mexico Territory at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th Century). However, if it WAS one of those two designs, then someone either (A) MOUNTED THE SCOPE BACKWARDS, or (B) REVERSED THE SCOPE IN THE MOUNTS, because the windage and elevation adjustments were ON THE LEFT SIDE and TOP (respectively) of the FORWARD mount. Normally, they'd be on the REAR mount, with the windage adjustment to the RIGHT.

As far as caliber, I'm not certain--the 6 X 57 mm Mauser (which appeared in 1895),  the 6.5 X 54mm Mauser (which appeared around 1900), the 6.5 X 57mm Mauser (which appeared in 1893-94),  the 7 X 57mm Mauser (.275 if you're British, which appeared in 1892-93),  the 8 X 57mm Mauser (the original 1888 loading with the .318"-diameter bullet, NOT the .323"-diameter variant which replaced that load in 1905), the 9 X 57mm Mauser (which appeared sometime after the introduction of its parent 8 X 57mm in 1888), and the the 9.3 X 57mm Mauser (which dates to around 1900),  are all possibilities. The weapon could just as easily have been chambered for any one of several early rimless or semi-rimmed American or English sporting or military cartridges of the day.

We all know that Hollyweird (no, that WASN'T a typo  ;)) rarely uses period-correct weapons in films unless someone involved with the project is almost OBSESSIVE when it comes to historical accuracy, but JOE KIDD[/i] appears to be an exception. The only major gaffe I noticed in that film (aside from the possible error noted above with the other rifle's telescopic sight; that is, a 1950's telescopic sight in a film set around the beginning of the 20th Century :)) was that the rifle used by Robert Duvall, in his role as "Frank Harlan", was a Savage Model 1899--okay for a film set in 1900 or so, EXCEPT THAT[/i] the weapon had a MODERN[/i] telescopic sight with internal adjustments. I'm not exactly certain as to the date, but I don't believe those came into general use until a few years prior to the beginning of World War I (August, 1914). I think it was about 1910 or so, which was approximately a decade after the events depicted in the film.

Mingo's rifle is more difficult. I think it was either a Remington-Keene (a .45-70 bolt-action, external-hammer design that appeared in 1869) {a scoped Remington-Keene was used by actor Brad Johnson in the role of professional killer "Beau Dorn" in the 2001 made-for-cable-TV Western CROSSFIRE TRAIL [/i], adapted from the Louis L'Amour novel of the same name and starring Tom Selleck} or a Winchester Hotchkiss (also a .45-70 bolt-action, but a more traditional striker-fired design that first appeared around 10 years after the Remington-Keene). Both were tubular-magazine designs, with the Remington-Keene's magazine being under the barrel, and the Winchester Hotchkiss feeding from a magazine in the butt, accessible through a small loading gate in the stock--a practice later carried over into several early .22 rimfire repeating rifles. The Remington-Lee, a striker-fired, bolt-action .45-70 which fed from a BOX magazine below the receiver (unusual for its day), is also a possibility, as it first appeared in 1879. Both the Remington-Keene and the Winchester Hotchkiss were designed as military rifles, but there were sporting versions of them as well. The Remington-Lee, however, was strictly a military weapon, being tested by the U.S. Navy in 1879, the Army in 1882, and finally adopted by the Navy as an official service rifle in 1885.

To be honest, I haven't the faintest idea what sort of telescopic sight was used, though; the rifle isn't on screen long enough to examine it in any real detail. All I know is that it was a long-eye-relief model, as it was mounted FORWARD of the rifle's action, instead of on the receiver, as was the case in the rifle used by Clint in the role of "Joe Kidd".


Hope this helps.

--John Omohundro
« Last Edit: January 23, 2004, 05:36:05 PM by John Omohundro » Logged
John Omohundro
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2004, 03:26:12 PM »

GunLover:

Just thought you'd like to know--

I looked up ALL THREE of the rifles I mentioned  as possibilities for Mingo's weapon on http://www.gunsamerica.com/ earlier--that is, the Remington-Keene and Remington-Lee rifles  (under "Remington Rifles--Pre-1899") and the Winchester Hotchkiss (under "Winchester rifles--Pre-1899"), and none of them seemed to match the rifle used by James Wainwright in the film.

--John Omohundro
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 03:26:38 PM by John Omohundro » Logged
Mingo
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2007, 07:38:05 AM »

John, Mingo's rifle is a Remington -Keene deluxe sporter bolt action in .40-60 Marlin & Ballard Cal. or .45-70 Govt. Cal. It has a short tube magazine under barrel with a barrel band sling swivel. The scope appears to be a early 20th century Wm. Malcolm or J.W. Sidle scope in a mount I can't identify. When he shoots Manolo from his horse, he cocks that external hammer on the end of the bolt.

Joe's sniper duel rifle is a Ross Rifle model M-10 (1910) sporter/special take down rifle in .280 Ross caliber. That cartridge is basically a 7mm Rem. mag. in early 1900's & was way ahead of it's time. The rifle has a straight pull bolt action & extra large receiver ring tested to 28 tons pressure to handle that round. You are right on with the scope which appears to be a Winchester A-5 or B-5 (Circa:1909) 5x power in micrometer mounts. Yes, the mounts are reversed from how they should be.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 06:03:02 PM by Mingo » Logged
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