News: THE MULE, directed by and starring Clint Eastwood: now on disc and streaming!


0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this board.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Josey Wales vs. Unforgiven  (Read 33488 times)
vik
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2802


flags of our fathers


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2004, 09:05:36 AM »

disagree at the end of josey wales - you continue to ponder to - the plight of the indians - the west - what josey wales stood for - it has a continuing story line

how much its to do with fletcher and not the redlegs

that final scene a moving tribute to the west

« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 09:08:15 AM by vik » Logged

england -  its flag the St George flag
Philo Beddoe Jr
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1750



View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2004, 09:09:13 AM »

disagree at the end of josey wales - you continue to ponder

Does Josey Wales go back to the farm after he and Wilson make peace?

WKC.
Logged

vik
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2802


flags of our fathers


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2004, 09:11:04 AM »

wkc - thats a  question and a half  ;D

thanks for asking it i have no idea - whose's wilson? oh yeh josey wales makes peace with himself?

there you have why josey wales is such a good film

its awesome

its magnificient

its spectacular

we always know munny is a bit boring not our josey

nothin ordin'ry about josey

"are you gonna pull them pistols or whistle dixie"
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 09:28:15 AM by vik » Logged

england -  its flag the St George flag
Philo Beddoe Jr
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1750



View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2004, 09:29:43 AM »

whose's wilson?

Sorry, I meant Fletcher... :-[

WKC.
Logged

vik
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2802


flags of our fathers


View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2004, 09:34:23 AM »

well at then end the people in the bar call josey - mr wilson

and josey must reconcile his past with himself and fletcher to be able to move on

so not far wrong wkc
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 09:34:48 AM by vik » Logged

england -  its flag the St George flag
Agent
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1738



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2004, 09:37:35 AM »

nothin ordin'ry about josey

Good point. But is that what we’re looking for? A superhero?

Rambo, Mad Max, the MWNN, Indiana Jones, etc., aren’t ordinary guys either. But they’re fun pics to watch. :)

Logged

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." - Clint Eastwood
Agent
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1738



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2004, 09:42:28 AM »

Quote
who's wilson?

Isn't he the guy that always squeezes the Charmin? I don't recall him being in the movie.


 ;)

- oops. I'm thinking of Mr. Whipple.

Never MIND....
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 09:48:11 AM by Agent » Logged

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." - Clint Eastwood
vik
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2802


flags of our fathers


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2004, 09:56:30 AM »

read my previous posts i have already said he isn't a superhero - agent

yes actually wkc i tell you the answer as to whether josey goes back to farm but that would spoil it for you and others  ;) and its only my opinion

whats lacking in unforgiven can be found in josey wales i've already discussed whats missing in unforgiven in a post a while back

like in unforgiven and munny there are many clues to find josey in josey wales
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 10:01:13 AM by vik » Logged

england -  its flag the St George flag
philo
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3715


"Slightly advanced"


View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2004, 10:09:31 AM »


Well it is good to read that other people besides me can see that The outlaw Josey Wales is the most complete western.
What happens to Josey at the end of the film is exactly the questions Eastwood used to leave his fans asking.
I like to be moved by cinema, sadly that does not happen much these days. Josey Wales you never get tired of, Unforgiven .... Well I have said in the past what I think .... and nothings changed.

Good to be back.


Philo .

« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 10:11:51 AM by philo » Logged

"I won't be hitting you with my face"
Philo Beddoe Jr
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1750



View Profile Email
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2004, 10:14:01 AM »

Good to have you back Philo!

WKC.
Logged

Agent
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1738



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2004, 10:20:38 AM »

Ditto. Where have you been?
Logged

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." - Clint Eastwood
Agent
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1738



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2004, 10:44:39 AM »

read my previous posts i have already said he isn't a superhero

Alright, a knight in shining armor then. Munny is definitely not that. Thank goodness.
Logged

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." - Clint Eastwood
philo
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3715


"Slightly advanced"


View Profile Email
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2004, 10:46:28 AM »


[email protected]

That is where to email me if you really want to know.


Philo .  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 10:46:41 AM by philo » Logged

"I won't be hitting you with my face"
vik
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2802


flags of our fathers


View Profile Email
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2004, 11:36:51 AM »

nope agent not a knight in shining either - your missing the point of the film
Logged

england -  its flag the St George flag
Jed Cooper
Classic Member
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4999



View Profile Email
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2004, 02:13:06 PM »

Howdy.  Funny, before Unforgiven, Wales was considered Clint's "masterpiece".  I love 'em both, favoring Unforgiven slightly because I was disappointed with Pale Rider.  Also, at the time Unforgiven was advertised, I'd become jaded after Clint's last 3 efforts ('Pink Cadillac', 'White Hunter, Black Heart' & 'The Rookie').  I thought, "Ok, that's the end of the line for Clint."  I'm glad to have been proven wrong time and again.  Another reason I favor Unforgiven is beause the overall quality (direction, production, photography and acting) is superior to Wales.  Still, both are among the greatest westerns of all time.  
Logged

“Eyuh.”
Christopher
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6450


The real me


View Profile Email
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2004, 02:50:35 PM »

Still, both are among the greatest westerns of all time.  
Indeed.

I don't think it is really easy to compare Unforgiven and Josey Wales. I was going to say that Wales isn't a revisionist western the way Unforgiven is, but I'm not sure if that's correct. I guess just the treatment of Native Americans alone might make Wales a revisionist. Both films deconstruct a myth of the west. Is Wales a superhero? He does have some of those qualitites, such as being a very wounded individual (I wouldn't call Munny unwounded). Only in the end, I think there's some hope for Wales. Of course, we still don't know what type of life he'd ever be able to build for himself.

To tell you the truth, it's been quite some time since I've seen either. There's a power to Unforgiven that seems unmatched in most modern films that I've seen.

Maybe you can see now why it's never been something I've been able to put my finger on. Which do I like better? Beats me. ;)
Logged
Washingtonian
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 108


I get the wrong idea only when it suits me.


View Profile Email
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2004, 03:48:53 PM »

I just bought unforgiven on DVD.  8) I'm gonna watch it tonight, or sometime this weekend.  Then, I'll compare the two films. I already have Josey Wales on DVD. So, until I get a chance to watch Unforgiven (the non-tv version  :P) I'll withhold judgement.
Logged
robluvsnic
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


I'm a llama! -- Huh? I didn't write that...


View Profile Email
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2004, 04:54:08 PM »

Wow, this topic really took off overnight.

First, Munny shot one unarmed man, with a shotgun (Skinny). Then, his shotgun misfired as he was aiming at the unresisting Little Bill. At that point, the shootout proper begins [....]

 the final result is five men dead and Munny not wounded, but the WAY it happens, I don't think it's fantastic at all ... One man was unarmed, one was shot in the back while fleeing, two were only wounded during the shootout and have to be finished off later on in cold blood.

Making the whole sequence of events seem all the more "realistic" is the fact that probably the only man in the saloon that night who didn't care whether he lived or died was William Munny.

You do realise, don't you KC, that I deliberately kept it vague, knowing full well that it would provoke you to respond with a correction? ;)

While there's no doubt that the debate (if that's what it is) can turn on the question of the "realism" or otherwise of either film, I tend not to bother with that question. I've said elsewhere (in the "Doug's thread" I think) pretty much all I care to say on questions of realism, and in general terms I would argue that any film (any cultural text at all) is always hybrid -- simultaneously "realist" and "mythic" (or "fantastic"). That's why I made that comment about the fantasy element to the final shoot out. If that scene doesn't convince then there's always the story (told, but not seen) of how Munny kills the deputies who at close range have their rifles pointed at Munny:

Quote
KID: Say, Will,

MUNNY: huh

KID: That business up in Jackson county, that really happen?
I mean the way they say it happened?

MUNNY: What business?

KID: On how there's two deputies up close pointing their
rifles right at you. Had you dead to rights. You pulled out
your pistol and blew them both to hell.
You only took a scratch yourself.
Yeah, Uncle Pete says he ain't never seen nothing like it,
shooting your way out of a scrape like that.

MUNNY: Yeah. Well I don't recollect.

Later, of course, Ned says he remembers it as being three deputies. Sounds pretty incredible to me, if not fantastic. At any rate, we could debate this endlessly. Perhaps we might even get to the point of saying that there's some sort of sliding scale between the two extremes of realism and fantasy. Even then, however, I think KC's surprising and instructive point about the final gunfight being the most "realistic" element of the film sort of shows that the "sliding scale" theory doesn't really answer the question once and for all.

Like Chrisopher, part of what thrills me about Uniforgiven more than any other movie I've ever seen is its "power". I admit that that's a pretty vague thing to say, so I'll try to define it further by saying that what I really like most about the film is its power to generate discussions precisely of this sort. It's the way the film enables so many different responses to it, and makes people want to talk about it. These discussions can range from those that use familiar terms, such as the debate about the film's "realism", to some very unexpected and unfamiliar reflections on, say, the question of forgiveness (see "Doug's thread"), or about gender or race politics, or about violence and so on. Even those discussions using more familiar terms, though, always seem to require questioning the validity or the usefulness of those terms (as with this discussion), and so Unforgiven always seems to leave people asking questions -- as well as thoroughly entertaining those people.

Of couse, Josey Wales does that too, and so in another time and place I'd be singing praise for that film. It's just that for some reason -- though it's probably isn't a reason at all -- whenever the question of the "greatest" western ever comes up, I can't help but say Unforgiven.
Logged
robluvsnic
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


I'm a llama! -- Huh? I didn't write that...


View Profile Email
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2004, 05:09:17 PM »

Quote
even as I wrote my earlier response, and lauded bdc28's theory, I couldn't help but have to shake the underlying thought...Unforgiven has a whole aura of the Western fantasy about it...Unkillable gunman, The final riding out of town scene....all possible, but all a bit fantastic and Mythic.
-- wkc

Quote
The poetic justice of it all, is that there is a writer sitting right in the room to view the "Final shootout of William Munny", and as realisitic as Munny TRIED to make it for him "Ive always been lucky"...you know that writer went out and made it a romantic novel anyways. BECAUSE all the elements were there, the outlandish numbers...the dramatic leave out of town. The facts wont stand the test of time, and thats kind of the back handed statement of the story.
--bdc28

These two comments just add further testimony to the force of Unforgiven to enable its viewers/readers to create new ways of speaking about the film (and therefore about film generally). I love that idea of the irresistable force of romance, of how the romance will seep in no matter how gritty and "realistic" the subject matter. It's a great way of responding to those people who criticise a film for being "unrealistic". It's like, "well, yeah, so show me a film that doesn't have a romantic element!".
Logged
KC
Administrator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 32007


Control ...


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2004, 09:29:58 PM »

Good comments, Robluvsnic.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6 Go Up Print 
 




C L I N T E A S T W O O D . N E T