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Author Topic: Unforgiven (Doug's thread)  (Read 35955 times)
KC
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2002, 07:36:26 PM »

Originally posted by little_bill, 12-02-2002:

hey stranger did you wear out the keys on your keypad writing that
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KC
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2002, 07:37:47 PM »

Originally posted by Philo, 12-02-2002:

The Stranger and myself went over this prior to him posting and I must admit he has put it across in a way that I also felt the films differ .
We found ourselves saying what was very , very right with Josey .

Philo .
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2002, 09:25:56 PM »

Maybe it's an european thing... I'm with Philo and Stranger cause I also didn't enjoy Unforgiven that much.

Why? Because for me to enjoy a movie, i need to like the story and in this case, I didn't  care much for the characters or  the story, the only character I really cared about was Delilah Fitzgerald cut and I think she should have a more relevant part.

I do admit that Unforgiven is the work of a movie scholar, it was filmed in a excellent way (the first scene is memorable), well acted... but  :-\ the story just didn't work for me. I don't think it was a innovative story, and most part of it was predictable (at least from my point of view).

Josey Wales is a different movie, I enjoyed the story from the beginning and I don't mind watch it over and over again.

Maybe it's really "an european thing".  :P ;D
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Agent
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2002, 10:33:49 AM »

WELL – I just spent a bunch of time typing a reply, and when I went to post it, I was suddenly “logged out.” I guess it’s better to stay logged in all the time!  I’ll try to repeat what I tried to convey earlier - but the caffeine buzz is gone  ;D, and the spontaneity of the original message probably won’t be there:  :-\

I’ll try and make this make sense. I think Josey and Unforgiven are two films which more or less reflect the period in which they were made. Eastwood’s films of the 70s, including Josey, are “fun” and less complicated to watch. No message to try and digest, and you just kick back and enjoy the story & the action - and that’s about it. Of course people will always have their own interpretations of what they feel those movies were attempting to project, whether the films had those intentions or not (i.e., Dirty Harry and the "political" interpretations of it by certain critics).

Unforgiven is somewhat more disturbing than say, Josey, and as was mentioned previously, shows the consequences of violence, the complications and problems one deals with when seeking vengeance, etc. Not your typical movie that gives you the satisfaction of blowing away your enemies and riding off in the sunset.  The persons (characters within the film) sort of “die” inside as a result of their actions, and this uneasy feeling flows over into the audience. Makes it not so “fun” to watch. Kind of carries a message of responsibility with it (although entertaining as well), but has a much stronger and more complicated story than say, Josey Wales, or the other Eastwood films from the 70s/80s.  A modern western, indeed.

For entertainment value and “fun,” I prefer Josey. You don’t have to reflect back and think – just soak it in and go for the ride. Unforgiven kind of slaps you in the face somewhat – sort of a 3-D film (psychologically and morally), which, depending on the mood you’re in, may not “make your day.” I actually found it kind of boring the first time I watched it - mainly because I kept getting interrupted. I think it would’ve been different had there been no one to distract me.

Well hope that made sense. The original message was better.  :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2002, 10:58:26 AM by Agent » Logged

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bdc28
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2002, 11:37:25 AM »

Unforgiven was made during a time that westerns were bitijng the dust. The fact that it was a major motion picture in and of itself, says alot.

I dont think its fair to say that UNFORGIVEN and JOSEY should be compared, because they tell two different stories.

JOSEY was about a man so drunk with his own thirst for revenge, that it took a slew of events to happen to remember his own humanity.

UNFORGIVEN was a story about someone who had time and sobriety to already reflect about what he took from humanity.

I think as a individual piece, UNFORGIVEN is definitely a one of a kind. An all time great? I dont know, I reserve those for the CITIZEN KANE's of the movie world, and those dont come around often.

I have to agree. Unforgiven was both over hyped and a really great movie.
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Doug
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2002, 09:18:15 PM »

Agent, I think you hit upon the difference...but I would say that Josey does have a message, and it's not an accidental message (or theme), but the movie can be watched and enjoyed without ever really thinking about its intent.  Which is not really the case with Unforgiven, with is definitely a more "mature" movie, and death in that movie is not taken lightly.   That fact alone makes Unforgiven a very unique movie in the action/western genre.  Even a great movie like Godfather doesn't make you really feel that sense of "oh my god, I'm watching a murder."  That's my personal reaction.

This reminds me: I saw Unforgiven originally in the theatre with two friends that raved and raved about the movie True Romance and took me to the theatre to see it.  (Then I raved and raved, but that's another story.)  So then I took them a few months later to see Unforgiven, and neither one liked it.  I asked why.  "It was too violent," they said.  I'm like what, but you loved True Romance and that was certainly violent.  They said it was different, that that was movie violence, but Unforgiven felt too real.  I think the same thing applies in the difference between Josey and Unforgiven.

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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2002, 07:04:38 AM »

Mature - definitely. Not implying earlier (70s) Eastwood films are immature....but yes, very strong, but no more violent than any other film. In fact, less violent than most films coming out today, in my opinion. I think alot of people judge it "too violent" because of the realistic way it displays violence.* Like a said, it feels like a "slap in the face," and some people don't care for that.

*In one of the most "violent" scenes, it doesn't even show (visually) the outcome - it effectively leaves it to the users imagination - the scene of Little Bill's demise. All it shows is a closeup of Eastwood's face and gun barrel...and the final "blam!". Stunned audience... :o
« Last Edit: December 05, 2002, 08:27:58 AM by Agent » Logged

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Doug
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2002, 01:23:42 PM »

Exactly Agent.  Josey is a cool movie, not immature, but the intentions of Unforgiven were altogether different.
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2002, 04:27:45 PM »

Doug, I know what you're saying about people who don't like the "real" violence in a movie. My aunt and uncle went and saw Unforgiven when it came out, and neither of them liked it at all. Of course, they're into a lot of older westerns and they're big John Wayne fans.

But it strikes me as odd that anyone would ever complain about the violence of Unforgiven. Sometimes it just doesn't make any sense at all. A cousin of mine (daughter of the aforementioned aunt and uncle) told me once that she didn't like Clint Eastwood because of the violence in his movies. The problem I have with this is that she's a big fan of gangster movies like The Godfather movies. As I said, that doesn't make sense to me, because those movies are pretty dark and violent. In fact, gangster movies are some of the most violent movies I've seen.

As far as saying which is better between Josey Wales and Unforgiven. Well, that's a whole different story. They aren't easily compared. Sure it's from the same director/actor, and both movies are westerns. But they came from two different times in Eastwood's career. Both films have a message and "say" something about violence.

Not too long ago, I watched Unforgiven, but unfortunately there was too many other things on my mind so I wasn't able to really get into the story the way I usually do. I remember the first time I watched it on TV several years ago, it seemed very shocking to me. It ended and I thought, Wow, that's it, it's over. It was one of those movies that had to sink in a little. The film builds slowly* and finally an outburst of violence at the end, and then it's over. It's an amazing movie.

*Me saying a movie builds slowly is never being critical of the movie. Even if a movie is very slow, that still doesn't mean I'm bored by it.
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2002, 06:36:36 AM »

 Hey Christopher,

Its not so much about how violent the movie is, but rather does whatever you see make you squirm.

This brings to mind the "dance" in the movie RESERVOIR DOGS. Now, in the movie, you never see the character Mr. Blonde cut off the policeman's ear, BUT you do hear the officer's gagged screaming, and the blunt character of Mr. Blonde saying coldly "HOLD STILL!!" Then it fades to Mr. Blonde holding a prop bloody ear up to his mouth and saying "Hey how ya doing? Can you hear that?"

Its more the effect it has on the viewer, not the graphic nature of it.

By Eastwood standards, UNFORGIVEN was actually light on violence. But its scenes were somewhat graphic, and very disturbing. As in all of Eastwood's genius, sometimes its not what he shows you, its what you can imagine is coming that completely unhinges you.
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2002, 06:54:21 PM »

I was going to rewatch these two films and post my thoughts but I realized I didn't have them on Special Edition DVD's and I want to give them both the best chance to impress possible! It's sad how many Clint DVD's I still don't have. Really depressing! All these new Clint DVD's keep coming out, and I don't have any of them!!! :(
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2002, 11:11:40 PM »

yeh aka, I too need to start my dvd collection. I have about 200 vhs movies, and just got that collection to this point from having to transfer my betas to vhs! >:( I am told dvd has better sound and sight technology, so I will strive to start my collection soon with Josey Wales and Unforgiven!
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2002, 12:54:47 PM »

Do you really think Unforgiven is Clints goodbye to the westerns??????
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2002, 06:01:57 AM »

having just watched unforgiven, i think it goes a long way to de-mythologising(sp?) the cowboy
he's not a good man deep down, in fact in the end he realises that he'll always be "william munny: killer of women and children" until his death.
bdc mentioned this about a year ago but we all have the capability of evil, i think unforgiven showed how with some of us a seemingly rational and non violent physce can be thin ice which can be broken at any time to release the monster within.
i thought the violence was perfect
you came out of the cinema thinking "eeugh he blew the guys head off" there was no "romantic final shoot outs" or "swashbuckling duels" this was the way it really happened and helped make violence far less romantic than some piece of muck like true romance.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 12:15:55 PM by little_bill » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2003, 05:24:07 AM »

nicely put, litlle bill.   :)
I also think that the shootings in themselves gives us a more realistic view of how "duels" vere fought.
all the deputies who just pulls out the guns and fires more or less blindly at the end, eastwood who takes his time to aim, and shoot, and walks away without a scratch.

As little bill states in the movie, it´s not good enough to pull fast, you have to aim to get a good shot

another thing is the killing of the second cowboy (shot by schofield kid on the can)
People didnt meet each one another face to face, they sneaked up behind the one they had the grudge against, and blew him away.
That was the way wild bill died ather all... 8)
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bdc28
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2003, 07:26:04 AM »

I also want to add, VERY nicely put Lil Bill.

There were bad asses of the western times, dont get me wrong. The reason Wild Bill was shot from behind was because no one would dare walk in front of him. But he spent his entire life in some brawl or another because of his name.

Wyatt Earp is another one. Jesse James, who was also killed while hanging a picture, shot in the head from behind.

My only real problem with Clints movies as of late, is that they are almost cliche. You can tell early on whats going  to happen.

An example? In Unforgiven, early in the movie he mentioned he was only violent when he drank. When he grabbed the bottle from the Schofield kid, you knew what was going to happen.

Now if he hadnt grabbed the bottle, and say gone anyway, showing it wasnt really the alcohol, I think people would have had a much different perspective on William Munny.

But alot of flags go up early in the movie to tell you what is happening later.
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2003, 07:33:25 AM »

If I remember right, it isn't until the end of the film before Munny takes a swig of the alcohol. Earlier in the film, he refused it out right. It's only after he knows Ned has been killed that he seems to knowingly go back to how he used to be.
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dane with no name
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2003, 01:32:09 PM »

Quote
Now if he hadnt grabbed the bottle, and say gone anyway, showing it wasnt really the alcohol, I think people would have had a much different perspective on William Munny.
Maybe, but then again it would have seemed odd that he had gone and become a pigfarmer to begin with if he earlier was a coldblooded killer and not because of the drink i might add. I sincerely doubt that his departed wife would have had any chance to redeem him. You are right about it when you say that we know what we know what´s gonna happen but we still hang on to the bitter end, sitting on the edge of our chairs watching a man who thought he had left the past behind him succumb to his dark side. That is almost the worst tragedy in the movie.  
It becomes almost apocalyptical when he leaves the saloon, threathening the townspeople, the limb rainsoaked american flag hanging behind him in the dark rain... :o
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KC
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2003, 05:44:33 PM »

An example? In Unforgiven, early in the movie he mentioned he was only violent when he drank. When he grabbed the bottle from the Schofield kid, you knew what was going to happen.

Now if he hadnt grabbed the bottle, and say gone anyway, showing it wasnt really the alcohol, I think people would have had a much different perspective on William Munny.

But alot of flags go up early in the movie to tell you what is happening later.
The most wrenching moment in the entire film comes when William Munny kills the injured young cowboy in cold blood, from ambush. He is stone cold sober at the time.
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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2003, 07:16:19 AM »

KC, I agree.

All I was saying is saying "Im not violent when I dont drink" and then reaching for the bottle later, was cliche as hell. It was, as Jeanine Garafolo once put it "as cliche as showing a snowball fight in a movie to show your easy".

Dont get me wrong, I thought alot of it was brilliant. But some of the lackluster "dont know whats gonna happen next" has gone out of Clints flicks for awhile now. Now its more like "WHEN is it going to happen?"
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