Pale Rider and High Plains Drifter

[harley]

   Look up the Morman Danite's on the web. Read about the Morman hitmen, and then re-watch Pale rider

[cougar5498]

But on the contrary, I do believe that Stranger is dead.
He is the ghost/resurrection of Jim Duncan, and came back to take his revenge
Hearing the whip disturbs him, he has those dreams (that only Jim Duncan could have)
When he's in the bathtub and Callie shoots him, he isn't even hit and yet she shoots in the bathtub, plus the bathtub moves when she bumps into it a sign that he has no mass, no weigh ... like a ghost.
And in the end when he whips Stacey Bridges and you see all these flames surrounding him, kind of a reminder of where he really comes from ... he died.

had the bullets hit the stranger, i think he would've been dead.  it wouldn't make any sense for the stranger to touch things, interact with people.......yet a bullet goes through him. 

whether or not a person is in a bathtub, i don't think would make it much harder to move......so long as it's full of water. 

the stranger could very well be the spirit of jim duncan......but i think he's in a mortal body.

[KC]

Ghosts don't operate according to the normal laws of physics.

[Americanbeauty]

had the bullets hit the stranger, i think he would've been dead.  it wouldn't make any sense for the stranger to touch things, interact with people.......yet a bullet goes through him. 

whether or not a person is in a bathtub, i don't think would make it much harder to move......so long as it's full of water. 

the stranger could very well be the spirit of jim duncan......but i think he's in a mortal body.

I don't know.

I don't think Callie missed her shot, actually. I think she hit him (bathtub scene). Who could possibly miss from this distance?  Even an inexperienced shooter like her wouldn't. IMO she didn't. The Stranger was hit, but since he was a ghost, he didn't die -can't die twice  He didn't feel a thing 

Ghosts don't operate according to the normal laws of physics.

Never met one personally, but uh that's what I heard 

[Doug]

I don't think Callie missed her shot, actually. I think she hit him (bathtub scene). Who could possibly miss from this distance?  Even an inexperienced shooter like her wouldn't. IMO she didn't. The Stranger was hit, but since he was a ghost, he didn't die -can't die twice  He didn't feel a thing 

That's as valid an interpretation as anyone's considering the question is left open, but so you know it is very possible for an inexperienced shooter to miss at that range.  It's also an equally valid interpretation to suggest that maybe she wasn't really trying to hit him.   

[Americanbeauty]

Sure. Anything's possible 

[cougar5498]

hmm, maybe i'd have to see it again.........but i'm almost positive you can see the ricochet of the bullets off the tub, you can see like a spark since the bullet is hitting the metal tub.  and you can see that the shots do indeed miss clint.

[KC]

Or pass through him.

[D'Ambrosia]

Did anyone check with ballistics?  (Ok, that was my cheesy Harry Callahan impersonation…) 

Ghosts don't operate according to the normal laws of physics.

But bullets, on the other hand, do… 

Water Is pretty much bullet proof.  Even today’s high power rifles can only penetrate roughly 3 feet of water before they run out of juice.  So the old adage of “as easy as shooting fish in a barrel” is really not that easy unless your right up on them…

[1936ireckonso]

  Good sunny clear morning from a part of The American Midwest-USA:

   Interesting discussions...I finally found a DVD of High Plains Drifter...now I have both of them.....

    It is important to me that he simply disposed of the bad guys....as I have said before, that'sa what I like....

    Sunday Morning
    0945 Hrs (EDST)
    June 25, 2006
    PIQUA, OHIO-USA

[AnnBKlorox]

Don't mean to get overly philosphical here, but one thing I have often considered is that this is no "return" at all by  a separate entity, but instead a collective rehashing of guilt by an entire community---their acttions come back to haunt them, even if its on their individual death beds on the day they die, and it manifests as a dream in the shape and story of "the stranger'

cause in the end we never really escape the consequences of our actions, ya know?
even if it takes a couple of lifetimes...

Ann B.

[palooka]

Interesting debate, I always thought they were both dead - guess I'm just morbid!

My main unanswered question for HPD was "why don't the towns folk of Lago recognize him?"

[No,namedfan]

I like High Plains a lot more than Pale rider, I loved the whole mysterious aspect of High Plains a lot more than Pale Rider but that is just me.

[dane with no name]

My main unanswered question for HPD was "why don't the towns folk of Lago recognize him?"

That all depends on what you think the stranger is.
If he´s a ghost or avenging angel, a slightly changed appearence, enough to remind the people of Lago of what they did, but not enough for them to believe that he is the Sheriff .
If the stranger is the sheriff´s brother, he would look a little different. It´s not like they´re identical twins or anything.

Don't mean to get overly philosphical here, but one thing I have often considered is that this is no "return" at all by  a separate entity, but instead a collective rehashing of guilt by an entire community---their acttions come back to haunt them

An interesting idea, kinda reminds me of John Carpenters movie The fog (though i take it that you consider it a psychological creation of the entity, not a supernatural one.) I havent seen HPD in a while, so i´ll see it again soon, and see how your point of view fits in with all the details.

[Perry]

Pale Rider was a nice welcome when it came out because Clint had not done a western in many years and I always liked Carrie Snodgress and Michael Moriarty. It was a Shane retread. I think Shane is the better movie, but Pale Rider was pretty good nonetheless,  especially seeing the great John Russell again in a larger role.

[Josey444]

Both films are great. I like that Clint has said that whatever the viewer wants to make of it, that's fine. In HPD, I think that Clint's character is indeed the avenging spirit of the sheriff. His fade-in and fade-out from the sweltering desert plains; painting the town red and renaming it "Hell"; Sarah's remark that the dead don't rest if they don't have a marker of some sort; the close-up of Clint being whipped, despite the credits listing Buddy Van Horn as Sheriff Jim Duncan---I think he was given this credit because he was also a stuntman on many Clint films (is still stunt coordinator on Clint's films) including HPD---nevertheless, it is Clint's face and his voice you hear during the whipping scene; Mordecai finally giving Duncan his gravemarker, saying "I never did know your name" followed by Clint saying "Yes you do." Then Mordecai's look of realization, followed by the obvious camera pan right up to the gravemarker with Duncan's name on it.

On the flip side, I think his character of Preacher in PR is human. In the film, he is in more of a protector role than the character in HPD. He doesn't kill until the situation absolutely calls for it (i.e. the arrival of Stockburn and his deputies). It is highly suggested that he knew Stockburn in the past---Stockburn even recognized him at the final showdown. He gives Stockburn the same 6-bullet treatment that Preacher himself survived, except for the final head shot. Mind you, this is just my opinion, but Preacher seems all too human. I don't think a ghost or an angel would have his guns put in a safe deposit box, then go retrieve them.

The only supernatural part for me was the voice calling "Preacher!" Some have theorized that it was Stockburn, but Stockburn didn't know at the time that Preacher was the man from his past. And Stockburn didn't appear to be the type of person to call out like that anyway. I know that Megan calls out for Preacher at the end as he moves on, suggesting that perhaps that is what we were hearing when Preacher said it was "a voice from the past."  In other words, Preacher hears people who have grown attached to him calling for him to come back as he goes from town-to-town. Still, I can't get away from the feeling that this part was a bit supernatural in an otherwise (to me) straightforward Western.

Any theories on what the heck was going on with the "voice from the past?"

[KC]

Thanks for a thoughtful post, Josey444! 

I have to demur on one point, though ...

...  the close-up of Clint being whipped, despite the credits listing Buddy Van Horn as Sheriff Jim Duncan---I think he was given this credit because he was also a stuntman on many Clint films (is still stunt coordinator on Clint's films) including HPD---nevertheless, it is Clint's face and his voice you hear during the whipping scene ...

It IS Van Horn in the flashback scenes. However, in the first flashback, there's a dissolve from a close up of Eastwood's face to Van Horn's in a similar position, so the spectator naturally makes an identification between the two characters.

I think that this detail doesn't prevent one from interpreting Clint's character as "the avenging spirit of the sheriff," as you say. It's easy to imagine that you get a bit of a makeover when you're transformed from a mere man to an avenging spirit. 

As for Pale Rider, I don't really have an idea about the "Voice from the past," either. Your suggestion that  "Preacher hears people who have grown attached to him calling for him to come back as he goes from town-to-town" is as good as any.

There are a couple of other hints of the supernatural ... the way the Preacher seems to appear and disappear at will, for instance. It's really done by clever camerawork, but it COULD be that he's really materializing and dematerializing! 

[Josey444]

Thanks for the comments, KC.  I guess being Clint's stunt double would call for Buddy to look like him, but I'm amazed at how much he resembles him in HPD. Thanks for the info!

I though about the materializing and dematerializing in PR, except for the scene where he's hiding behind the crates as Stockburn's two deputies go by and he shoots them. Like you said, clever camerawork and Preacher being stealthy. 

[No,namedfan]

IMO I think High Plains ranks up there right at the top with the The man with no name trilogy. I do like Pale Rider but I think it is the second weakest western Clint has made behind Hang Em High,which I think is average at best.

Pale Rider is a three star film ,I do like the mystery surrounding  the preacher, but  it was also done a lot better in High Plains.

Pale rider ***
High Plains drifter *****. Also Hight palins is the fourth greatest western ever made.

[Hemlock]

I do like Pale Rider but I think it is the second weakest western Clint has made behind Hang Em High,which I think is average at best.

Really  So you prefer Joe Kidd over the Pale Rider and Hang `Em High