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Author Topic: Clint's Guns  (Read 263104 times)
D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2003, 08:58:32 PM »

Two Mules For Sister Sara is a hard one.  The history of Cinco De Mayo, The Fifth Of May, commemorates the victory of the Mexicans over the French army at The Battle Of Puebla in 1862.  Hogan and Sara keep referring to June 15th. Like six weeks after?

Even though the French lost the battle of Cinco De Mayo to inferior forces and it was a great victory over the French by the Mexicans the French still managed to rule the country until the late 60s early 70s    It might have taken place in the early 1870s when the last of the French pack up and went home?

In any case the revolver he uses is most definitely a Colt Peace Maker.  It was virtually impossible to get a proto-type of this gun before 1872ish unless you go with my “Jordan of Gun fighting” theory were if you knew the right gunsmith and had enough money you could have them fitted to accept and fire off metallic rifle cartridges through a bore through cylinder.
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KC
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2003, 11:07:45 PM »

D'Amb, for what it's worth ... I believe the date Sara and Hogan keep referring to is July 14 ... Bastille Day, the French national holiday. Year not specified.

Since the Emperor Maximilian was executed by firing squad in June 1867, it would seem safe to assume that the action of this film takes place before then.
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2003, 05:45:16 PM »

Interesting KC.  So if Maximillion was executed in June 67 surely the French troops would not be as prevalent and organized as they were in the movie if date would have been July 14th, 1887.

Let's just say for historical continuity sake the date of the movie is the week of July 14th, 1866.  Right?  

I believe that Hogan says something to Sara about the time he has spent fighting the Civil War.  (The "everyone has the right to be a sucker once in theirs lifes")
-I'll watch it again real qick when I get off work.  And have the final results along with the Beguiled...  ;)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 05:46:09 PM by DAmbrosia » Logged
Dannyman
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2003, 09:21:34 PM »

I wonder if the .44 Automag is still in production?
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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2003, 09:25:13 PM »

What kind of rifle did Scorpio use to murder the woman in Dirty Harry?
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2003, 10:26:26 PM »

M1 Grande rifle 30.06.... :(
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2003, 12:04:25 AM »

The .44 Magnum Auto-Mag which was the gun replicated durning the shooting of Sudden Impact is no longer produced by the company Harry's gun was based after...

-More to come on this latter when it comes around...
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2003, 01:47:05 AM »

Two Mules For Sister Sara-1970

There is a historical conflict with Two Mules.  KC has put the action taking place in the movie starting at the week prior and leading to to July 14th Bastille Day 1866.

 I’d like to review this film on DVD when it comes out because once again I was stuck with the old VHS player which “pause” doesn’t even work so it’s not like I had the screen capture desired.  


44/40, 5 1/2 INCH BARREL

The pistol is no doubt a Colt Single Action Army notable from the ejector rod that runs the length of the barrel. (unlike Blondys Richards-Mason conversion model that still shows the loading lever) Even though firing metallic cartridges the early conversion models relied on the shooter to manually dislodge any spent cartridges.  The beautiful thing about conversions like Blondys in GBU is that you could switch back from cap and ball to bore though cylinder at the drop of a dime.  The New Army Remmington ’58 was the most noteworthy of those however.  Once conversions started becoming common place the loading lever was replaced with an ejector rod prevalent on the Colt SAA ’73 like Joe’s  and Manco’s which didn’t hit the scene until late ’72 and weren’t mass produced until ’73.  So that’s discrepancy historically.  


Winchester Model 1866 "Yellowboy" Lever-Action
Repeating Rifle; .44-40 Winchester caliber cartridge


Otherwise the Rifle he uses seems to be in the right time frame.   I’d like to do a little tribute to Dynamite seeing how it played a big role in the movie.  There are some great stunt scenes towards the end were Hogan goes to town.  The scene Eastwood did being dragged by the horse, lets go, flings the lit dynamite at the door is fantastic.  If I’m not mistaking it’s Eastwood that does the stunt.  And when Eastwood blows the tower you can see his reaction after the explosion is not acting it’s a real flinch of fear…              The history of dynamite is a fascinating one and it’s distribution of it concurs a little earlier than the time frame of the movie. Alfred Nobel was a Swedish chemist and a very skillful entrepreneur and business man, born in Stockholm on October 21, 1833.  Alfred saw that the advantages nitroglycerin had over gun powder could be used in a commercial and technical way. Over the years they had several explosions in the laboratory; a big one in 1864 killed the younger brother Emil and several other people. The city of Stockholm enforced laws that experiments with explosives could not be made within the city limits of Stockholm. Alfred was a great inventor and had 355 patents overall. Others to mention, besides dynamite, include synthetic rubber and leather, and artificial silk. Alfred lived a great deal of his life in Paris but also traveled a lot on business trips around the world. He was constantly involved in intense work and did not have much time left for private life. Besides his interest in his business, Alfred was very interested in social and peace-related issues, he also had a great interest in literature and poetry and even wrote some of his own works. He died in San Remo (Italy) on December 10, 1896. His will directed his fortunes to be used to establish a foundation that awarded a yearly Nobel Prize in the areas Physics, Chemistry, Physiology and Medicine, Literature, and Peace. The Nobel Prize ceremony is held in Stockholm on December 10 each year and the king of Sweden is the person in charge of handing over the prize to the awarded in each category. The ceremony for the Nobel Prize for peace, however, is held in Oslo, Norway

                         
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 08:19:44 PM by DAmbrosia » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2003, 06:21:17 AM »

Thanks, D'Amb! The accounts I have read confirm that Eastwood did, indeed, do that dangerous stunt himself.
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2003, 10:04:48 AM »

THe Beguiled -1971

I have no idea why they put Clint with a Colt .45 Peacemaker in the poster to this movie ???



As for the rest of The Beguiled it is definitely historically correct.  All the guns used by the Confederate troops are all Cap and Ball.  Mrs. Farnsworths brothers gun that McBurney acquires in the movie is more than likely a French Flintlock Stright Stick as seen below.



The Flintlock had been around since the 17th century and was replaced by the cap and ball in 1803, but most notably by Colts Paterson model in 1836.  The Flintlock has interesting action as seen below

The Flintlock Mechanism
The Merriam Webster Dictionary describes a lock, in the context of a gun, as:

The method for exploding the charge or cartridge of a firearm.

The flintlock is the most venerable of the lock technologies. The flintlock mechanism, like the pendulum clock mechanism, is amazing from an innovation standpoint. This single device solved so many of the problems of the time, and it did it using the fairly primitive tools and technology available at that time. The flintlock was quite an accomplishment!

The basic goal of the flintlock is simple. The flintlock needs to create a spark that can light the gunpowder that is stored in the barrel of the gun. To create this spark, the flintlock uses the "flint and steel" approach. The idea behind flint and steel is straightforward -- Flint is an amazingly hard form of rock. If you strike iron or steel with flint, the flint actually flakes off tiny particles of iron. The force of the blow and the friction it creates actually ignites the iron, so it burns rapidly to form Fe3O4. The sparks that you see are the hot specks of iron burning! If these sparks come near gunpowder, they will ignite the gunpowder.

The flintlock therefore needs a piece of flint, a piece of steel and a place for the sparks to touch gunpowder. The flint needs to move at high speed and strike the steel in such a way that the sparks fall into some gunpowder. The four parts that make this happen are:

The hammer, which holds and accelerates a piece of flint.
The mainspring, which powers the hammer.
The frizzen, which is the piece of steel the flint strikes.
The pan, which is the place where a small quantity of gunpowder waits to receive the sparks.
These four pieces are all that the flintlock actually needs to accomplish its goal, but all flintlocks also solve the problems of loading the pan, protecting the pan from the weather and triggering the hammer, so there are three additional parts:


The tumbler, which holds and releases the power of the mainspring and transmits it to the hammer
The sear and sear spring, which engage the tumbler and release it when someone pulls the trigger.
The frizzen spring, which holds the cover attached to the frizzen over the pan to make the flintlock weatherproof.
The mainspring presses against the tumbler and is able to rotate the hammer with a great deal of force. The sear engages the tumbler when the gun is cocked and holds the force of the mainspring. When you pull the trigger, it pushes the sear enough to release the tumbler and allows the hammer to drive the flint forward. You can these parts in the images below:

In addition, the frizzen has the ability to move. In the cocked position the frizzen is down covering the pan. When the flint strikes it, the frizzen pops out of the way to expose the pan. The frizzen spring holds the frizzen in both positions.

To use a flintlock you load the gun as follows:
You half-cock the hammer.
You pour a measure of gunpowder down the barrel
You wrap a lead ball (the bullet) is a small piece of cloth or paper and ram it down the barrel on top of the gunpowder. The bullet/cloth combination will have a good tight fit.
You place a small amount of gunpowder in the flintlock's pan.
You snap the frizzen in place over the pan.
You fully cock the hammer.
You pull the trigger to fire the gun.
When you fire the gun, the flint strikes the frizzen and shaves off iron to create sparks. The hammer's blow also snaps the frizzen back to expose the gunpowder in the pan. The pan's gunpowder ignites, and it flashes through a small hole in the side of the barrel to ignite the gunpowder inside the barrel. The gun fires!


« Last Edit: June 07, 2003, 08:51:55 AM by DAmbrosia » Logged
Concorde
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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2003, 03:51:54 PM »

D'Ambrosia, I used to be the resident gun expert around here, until the change of format in the board blocked me out for several months (until now, that is), but I see you've been doing a pretty darn good job in my absence.  ;)

The only thing I noted up above with which I'd have to take issue is your description of the long-range rifle used in JOSEY WALES (for the "Missouri Boat Ride" sequence). It's actually a Sharps, not a Spencer. The Spencer wasn't powerful or accurate enough for this task, whereas the Sharps (such as the original example chambered in .50-70 Govt that I own) could kill a horse at 600 yards. They are very similar rifles at first glance, but their receivers have slightly different shapes.

Otherwise, keep up the good work! I hope you can successfully identify those long-range bolt action rifles in JOE KIDD, a task that's always proven impossible for me.

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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2003, 04:37:15 PM »

Concorde! Welcome back! Yes, we had a thread about the rifle in Josey Wales on the old Board, didn't we!  ;)

And D'Amb did say ...
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I might mention that the rifle he uses is not a Spencer as I had suspected but that will soon be corrected.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2003, 04:43:12 PM by KC » Logged
D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2003, 06:52:55 PM »

Concord!  Welcome back man... :D

It's good to see a wise guy from WAY back... ;)

I've just been trying to keep up the good work were you left off...

I can remember your posts from the very first version of the Eastwood Web board from way back when in '98...


It's really good to see an oldtimer back.  And it's really good to see you back in action....

By all means feel free to jump in and make any corrections that I may have overlooked...  

And BTW you still are the resident gun expert around here as far as I'm concerned ;)

As Mr. Pants stated above:
Quote
Oops, didn't mean to steal anyone's thunder. Sorry 'bout that. Carry on.
8)

Looking forward to Joe Kidd  I know it's going to be a little bit of a grind...  

Great to have you back dude!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2003, 09:19:38 PM »

Dirty Harry-1971



Smith and Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum

When it came time to choose Harry's weapon for the first film, Eastwood knew exactly what kind of firepower he wanted for the character.  Unfortunately, the Model 29's were not in production at the time, and it took a little string-pulling to get a few made for the film- they had to be assembled from parts.

Eastwood spent time on the shooting range prior to undertaking the role, so that he would be able to properly imitate the .44's recoil when using blank cartridges.  (The blanks also had to be specially made, as the traditional Hollywood blanks would not fit the .44 chamber.)  As for his choice of ammo, Harry uses a light special load which is usually favored for reduced recoil and better control.

SPECIFICATIONS

Manufacturer: Smith & Wesson

Basic Models:
Model 29..............blue or nickel finish
Model 629.............stainless finish

Type: Double-action revolver with swing-out cylinder
Caliber: .44 Magnum
Capacity: 6 round cylinder
Barrel: Several lengths are available from 4" to 8-3/8".

Sights:
Rear.........windage adjustable notch
Front........vertical ramp with red insert on standard models

Dimensions: (for 6-1/2" model)
Length.......11-7/8"
Weight.......47 ounces (empty)


GENERAL

Smith & Wesson produces a wide range of firearms, including many different sizes and types of revolvers.  This FAQ deals specifically with the .44 Magnum models.

The .44 Magnum cartridge was introduced in 1955 by Remington for use in the [then] new Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum revolver.  In years following, other manufacturers added .44 Magnum revolvers to their lineups.  In addition, there are several rifles that chamber the .44 Magnum cartridge.  Today, the .44 Magnum is still considered to be one of the most powerful handgun cartridges available commercially.

From 1955 to 1957, S&W's big revolver was simply called the "The .44 Magnum."  In 1957, when S&W standardized the model numbering of their products, the .44 Magnum was continued as the S&W model 29.

Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum revolvers have heavyweight steel frames, and have been available with blue, nickel, or stainless steel finishes.  The nickel finish is no longer available on newly manufactured models.  The blued and nickel models are called the model 29.  The stainless model is called the model 629, and is identical in all respects to the model 29 except for the finish.  There have been several specialized versions of the 629, such as the "629 Classic", "629 DX", "629 Classic Hunter", etc., with features such as interchangeable front sights, full lug barrels, special grips, etc.


CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION

The S&W 29 follows the same pattern as the majority of other S&W "hand ejector" revolvers.  It uses the N-type frame, S&W's heaviest.

The hinged cylinder swings out of the left side of the frame for loading and unloading.   The cylinder is released by the cylinder latch button located just behind the cylinder on the left side of the frame.  When the cylinder is swung out, any empty cases may be ejected by pushing the spring loaded ejector rod located at the front of the cylinder.  Normal cylinder rotation is clockwise when viewed from the rear.

The revolver may be operated in either double or single action mode.  For single action, the operator manually pulls back the hammer before pulling the trigger.   For double action, the operator simply pulls the trigger.  Substantially less effort is required to pull the trigger in single action mode.

As with most other S&W products, the model 29 revolvers have fairly well finished parts, are hard to break, and will last a lifetime when properly maintained.  One minor complaint is that the hammers and triggers during some years of manufacture are bare unfinished metal, not properly case hardened, and thus will rust readily if not cared for.

Over the years, several different types of grips have been standard equipment on these revolvers.  The current style is a contoured soft rubber grip by Hogue that absorbs more of the recoil than some past attempts.  Earlier models were usually equipped with square-butt checkered walnut grips or Pachmayer round-butt hard rubber grips.

The rear sight is a square notch, adjustable for windage using a small allen-head wrench.   On more recent 29s, the notch is outlined with a bright white line, for easier sighting.

The standard front sight is a vertical ramp.  On more recent 29s, a bright red insert on the ramp makes for easier sighting.  Additional front sights are also available, and a selection of five interchangeable front sights are standard equipment with the 629 DX model.

*Specifications and edited review taken from here.  (Complete review can be found at this address.)  Ammunition source information:  Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Ed

Taken from Jake's Web-Site: http://www.the-dirtiest.com/
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 08:23:03 PM by DAmbrosia » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2003, 02:58:07 PM »

Dirty Harry-1971



DAmrosia - that's a great shot of the gun.  I actually saw it in person, and its huge.

Where did you get it ?

(And I really don't know why the dirtiest site says that model 29's weren't made yet in '71, when that same article later says it was).



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D'Ambrosia
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2003, 06:15:47 PM »

To be honest gwb, just as most of my other images in this thread, it's taken from random images search from Google and I just happened to get luckey with that one!

gwb, that is a picture of the .44 Magnum that John Milus owns.

John Milius worked as a co-screenwrither on Dirty Harry (uncredited) and was the writer for Magnum Force and managed to   get that particular gun while the  filming the movie.  This is his take on “Getting the .44Magnum” :

“This is a .44 Magnum, as you know, the most powerful handgun in the world, not any more, but it was then, and it fires neither five or six because it’s empty.  This is one of the original guns from the movie.  When I did the second movie I said “I want one of those guns, can’t you get the prop department steal one of those guns and give it to me?  So Clint and a Warner Brothers publicity guy arranged to get that and they put a plaque on it and everything so it’s a very valuable gun now. It’s become an icon.    

Another interesting take on Harry and his .44 from Milius:  
“The idea was that Dirty Harry was suppose to be an outsider. That he was suppose to be a loner.  He lived alone.  He had lousy food in his icebox, a couple of beers.  He had no life except the hunt.  He was a hunter.  That’s why he carries a .44 magnum ‘cause it was a gun developed for hunting."

BTW I thought the same thing about the “the gun not being in production” as mentioned on the dirtiest  site.  Cause the research I did said it was in production at the time but oh well.  I just thought it would be nice to give Jakes site a little plug that’s all…  Just goes to show me what happens when you get lazy... ::)

BTW gwb, where did you get to see it?  That's great!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2003, 06:22:23 PM by DAmbrosia » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2003, 06:21:05 AM »

...BTW gwb, where did you get to see it?  That's great!


I happened to be in VA last year when the NRA had a display on Hollywood guns, including the famous winchesters used by Chuck Conners (The Rifleman) and John Wayne, and a whole bunch of guns used by Eastwood in various movies - the .44 happened to be there (Milius is on the NRA board...).
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Doug
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2003, 01:21:20 PM »



When it came time to choose Harry's weapon for the first film, Eastwood knew exactly what kind of firepower he wanted for the character.  Unfortunately, the Model 29's were not in production at the time, and it took a little string-pulling to get a few made for the film- they had to be assembled from parts.

Does this mean they had not yet gone into production, or that they had stopped making them?  


Quote
As for his choice of ammo, Harry uses a light special load which is usually favored for reduced recoil and better control.

I know this is the quote from Magnum Force, and we had a discussion about this earlier, but does anyone know what it really means?  I've always seen the quote as possibly a cop out since simply put the .44 magnum is not really an ideal gun for city cop to carry, because it's too powerful, and would exit most people in most situations with I'm guessing very little loss of force and velocity.  So a couple of people were suggesting that he's saying he actually uses  .44 Special cartriges.  I don't buy that, based mainly on the recoil and sound his gun makes when firing it.  Also I don't buy that he target practices with one ammo and uses another on the street, because they fire completely differently.  So I take it that he just uses, literally, lighter shells, say around 180-grain.  Is this the proper conclusion?  Interested in your thoughts DAmb.
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2003, 09:57:12 PM »

This is what Callahan says when asked what kind of load he fires in his .44:

Spencer: “What kind of load do you use in that .44?”

Callahan: “It’s a light special; this size gun it gives me better control and less recoil than a .357 with wad cutters.”

(keep in mind that advocate shooters are always “saving brass” and making their own reloads fiddling around with the amount of grain than they put in behind the shell.  So, maybe at that particular time after the “excessive force full loads” in DH, he was trying to tone down the gun a bit…?)

There are many different types of “bullets” and the amount of “gunpowder” you can chamber in modern handguns, so it doesn’t surprise me that Callahan, being a hunter and all, on occasions where he’s hunting, carries the nastiest loads as opposed to everyday practicing and carrying it in the city and on the street loads. His bullets are the light specials as opposed to the full loads as in going after Scorpio and all ….  

If he’s “on the case” and in the hunt he is carrying full loads.  

His response to Kate in asking him why he carries the .44:

Kate:  “You are cold bold Callahan with his great big .44.  Everybody cop in this city is satisfied with a .38 or a .357.  Why do you have to carry that cannon for?
Callahan:  “’Cause I hit what I aim at, that’s why.  .357 is a good weapon but I’ve seen .38’s careen off windshields.  No good in a city like this…”

So on any given day he could have any given load depending on circumstances.  
 
What do you think Doug?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2003, 10:01:24 PM by DAmbrosia » Logged
Dannyman
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2003, 02:09:07 PM »

Was Harry's .44 a  6 1/2 inch barrel?  ???
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