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Author Topic: Clint's Guns  (Read 349654 times)
The Man With No Aim
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« Reply #300 on: February 29, 2012, 12:05:27 AM »

Hi what size ammo does this gun use and does it have a big kick to it .Just wondering if a little lady like my self could
handle. :)

What gun is "this gun"?

And how big of a "little lady" are you? Are you an experienced shooter, or, have you never fired a pistol before?
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« Reply #301 on: February 29, 2012, 12:53:48 AM »

Just a bit of historical interjection here...James Butler Hickock (AKA Wild Bill or Duck Bill) carried & used the Navy .36's for the majority of his career. He was deadly accurate & seems not to have had a desire for the .44's.

Perhaps the reduced recoil improved his shooting accuracy? Also the reduced weight might have been better for "draw" situations (Although Wild Bill was not noted for being fast)

Have you ever fired an 1851 Navy Colt? Or any other pistol for that matter? I am not being contentious, I am just wanting to know what your shooting background is, to make any further gun discussion easier for both of us.

The lower recoil of a black powder gun compared to a gun using modern smokeless propellant is remarkable noticeable. Long ago and far away, I took several guns with me to a safe and legal shooting place to try them out in a kind of a comparison situation. At that particular time, long ago and far away, this man was about 180, 5-10, and in quite good physical condition (for a non-Schwartzeneger body double).

1. a repro 1851 Navy Colt in anachronistic 44 caliber

2. a Ruger Super Blackhawk (the other world's most powerful handgun, a 44 magnum)

3. a Ruger semi automatic (the Ruger that looks like a Luger) in 22 Long Rifle

The sweet little Ruger "Luger" had practically no recoil. Very easy to hold on target.

The 1851 Navy Colt 44 was charged with 20 grains, 30 grains, and the maximum possible 40 grains of black powder. There was very little recoil. With a one hand grip it was very easy to hold the gun on target. I was pleasantly surprised to see that I could actually see the ball in flight. I had first noticed such a thing when I was about ten and my Daddy was teaching me to shoot his 22 Short bolt action rifle. It was genuinely a surprise to see a bullet in flight.

The Ruger Super Blackhawk. I only shot 44 Specials. Recoil was unmanageable with one hand grip or two. The barrel jumped up 6 inches or more, and 3 or inches to my right.  The Beast even with only Specials, not Magnums.

The recoil that is felt from a black powder shot is totally different from that of a modern smokeless powder shot. It is fact of chemistry that the pressure rise of modern powder is something like 5 or 10 ten times as fast; the Lord blessed me at birth with reflexes of a "natural" athlete, so I am able to detect the subtle yet remarkable difference between the quickness of the two kinds of shots.

It is entirely possible that a "professional" gunfighter in the Old West would have chosen the 36 caliber gun as his best weapon. However, from my own personal experience, a 44 caliber pistol of the weight of a Navy Colt or more, would have had so little recoil problem that recoil would have been no factor. In my opinion the substantially greater knock down power of a 44 would have been the choice. I would rather be able to knock down an assailant with one shot from my 44 than to have to rely on two shots from a 36.
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The Man With No Aim
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« Reply #302 on: February 29, 2012, 01:39:48 AM »

I hadn't caught this before, & I feel the need to interject. The Outlaw Josey Wales is my favorite Clint western, but the firearms used are often highly inaccurate for the period.

Forgiving some of the cartridge conversions (Like Clint's Walkers) that were simply changed cylinders etc. Many of the weapons used were absolutely WRONG!

The year would have been 1865-66 when the ambush occures & Josey's unit is wiped out..before that Josey pulls a Richards-Mason 1860 army conversion that wouldn't exist until 1872-73. (Probably used to save reloading/shooting time for the practice sequence). The problem is that the same & similar conversions show up in the hands of at least half a dozen characters in the film..Including Lone Watie & Moonlight (Not peripheral characters by any means).

Josey's rifle is an 1874 Sharps, a cartridge model that wouldn't exist for almost a decade (The Sharps rifle did exist of course but as a cap & ball weapon).

Unforgiven is much more historically accurate; but as it was set in a later time period the firearms & their replicas are much more readily available..the stand out for me was the Spencer rifle..when Unforgiven was made the replica Schofield had recently been offered as a replica..but not the Spencer (it is now though).



The year of the massacre in Josey Wales is debateable. Do not bet your net worth on 65-66. It is not Josey's unit, it is Fletcher's unit. The use of the Gatling Gun makes it a good bit later than 66. You are obviously overlooking the fact that Josey Wales was an OUTLAW. Every time that he was assaulted by a contingent of the US Army and killed them all, he had his choice as a looter to pick up whatever new gun he found off of the dead colonels and generals,  who, SURPRISe, were carrying the latest and best guns they could requisition or personally afford to buy. Colonels and generals carrying Walkers, Dragoons, Whatevers, with conversion cylinders were entirely plausible in 66 or 70 or whatever year.    

My comments re the "period piece" quality of the mature CE films were the result of my appreciation of the over-all quality of the films and my visceral reaction and enjoyment. I was not thinking that some nit picker might bend over backward to try to convince me that my beloved mature CE films are really junks.

I suggest that you thoroughly and accurately research the subject of the dates of widely known cartridge conversions and related US patents and the availibility of manufactured cartridges in the era immediately preceding and during the Civil War. I suspect that you are in for some surprises.  

And lastly, I am already aware of the apparent anachronisms of the guns in JW. I am not blind and watching the film in Braille. Praise the Lord for my good sight.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:48:45 AM by The Man With No Aim » Logged

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« Reply #303 on: February 29, 2012, 02:28:20 AM »

Gentlemen, please do try to keep it civil. Comment on the facts of the guns in Clint's films, but please don't start sniping at your fellow Eastwood fans! It's plain that you both love these films, regardless of what quibbles you might have with the guns in them.
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rojblake
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« Reply #304 on: February 29, 2012, 05:32:31 AM »

I was not trying to be offensive, the dates & nature of the firearms in question are accurate. The outlaw Josey Wales would have been just after the war..this is made clear by such lines as the reference to General Joe Shelby not having surrenderd & having gone south.

I in no way suggest that the inaccuracies in firearms should detract from the film; the pistol that Josey pulls from his burned out home is either before or during the war & is an anachronism. The Senator & the Redlags also serve to date the film.

Do not blame me for the inaccuracies, I merely make you aware of them. Historically accurate films were not the demand in 1976 that they are today.

I refer to it as Josey's unit because he belonged to it, just as a man in the 82nd Airborne might refer to it a "his unit" when asked about it; certainly a private, corporal, Sergeant, etc. are not in command but might claim it as "their unit". Strictly speaking it was "Bloody Bill" Anderson's unit until his death & from the footage on screen it looked as though the two men became close.

As to the .44 vs. .36, that is a personal preference; I was alluding to the FACT that Hickock was known to carry .36's & was widley regarded as a hunter & killer of men.

(I will note that in Captain Marcy's "Prairie Traveller" he recommended the Army .44 because of its penetration value against a bear. The .36 didn't get through the fur coat; hardly a huge concern when shooting at a man.)

The Gatling gun was patented in 1862 & saw limited use during the war..although it was not "officially" adopted by the US Army until 1866, given the presense of a US Senator the date of 1865-66 is entirely plausible.

As to my firearms knowledge, I have fired revolvers, semi-autos, shot guns, rifles, pumps, levers, etc. I have less knowledge of black powder arms but have fired some, I own a 5.5" barrel 1860 Army. I also have a diploma in Gunsmithing from the Pennsylvania Gunsmith School (not a correspondence course).
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:26:49 PM by rojblake » Logged
The Man With No Aim
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« Reply #305 on: March 03, 2012, 12:59:30 AM »

Hi what size ammo does this gun use and does it have a big kick to it .Just wondering if a little lady like my self could
handle. :)

When I responded to your post a few days ago I was enjoying one of my 'brain-in-neutral" moments. Of course you must have been talking about the 1851 Navy Colt that has been prominent in the Thread for a number of posts.

The gun is offered as a modern reproduction by several manufacturers and suppliers. The original authentic gun from 1851 was made in only 36 caliber, equivalent to the modern 38 caliber. The reproductions are offered in either 36 or 44 caliber. They don't use ammo per se, because they cap and ball guns. They can be loaded with either round lead balls or with conical lead bullets packed down against loose black powder first poured into the cylinder chamber.

Several manufacturers sell conversion cylinders which take the place  of the cap and ball cylinder and allow the use of metal cartridges similar to commonplace modern ammo. If you buy a reproduction Navy Colt in the authentic 36 caliber then with a conversion cylinder, you could load and shoot 38 caliber cartridges. BUT! Manufacturers of conversion cylinders demand that you use ONLY cartridges loaded with black powder. the reason they give is that modern smokeless powder causes pressure higher than the gun is designed to tolerate. The good news is that black powder cartridges are widely available at prices not a whole lot different than regular ammo cost.

And, as you would suppose, the power and recoil of a black powder cartridge is just about exactly the same as if you fire a cap and ball with the same size powder charge.

So, if you want the experience of shooting Blondie's gun, you can do it the better way of buying a gun and a conversion cylinder. A conversion will cost double or more than only the reproduction cap and ball version. However, if you are not already a somewhat experienced shooter, you should avoid the complication and inherent danger of cap and ball. There are definite serious dangers in shooting cap and ball that are practically non existent with cartridges.

Now, can a tiny lady shoot a Navy Colt? From my personal experience shooting my own 44 caliber Navy Colt I would say that the comparatively gentle recoil of black powder compared to modern smokeless powder should allow even fairly small and light shooters to enjoy one of these old guns. As I said in one of my previous posts, the recoil of my Navy with a max charge was about the same as my Ruger "Luger" with 22 Long Rifles. So, if you could somehow test shoot a gun with 22 LR ammo you would would feel about the same amount of recoil. And, if you were shooting a cap and ball cylinder (I HIGHLY recommend you either be already an experienced shooter, or, find a shooting buddy that knows cap and ball), you could start with a really light charge of say 15 grains and work your way up.
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« Reply #306 on: March 03, 2012, 11:08:55 PM »

Thinking more about a little lady shooting a 1851 Navy Colt....If a shooter is concerned about recoil, my thought is the best position is to hold your arm pretty much fully extended with your hand, arm, and shoulder muscles tensed as solid as possible just before pulling the trigger. Since an extended arm has less leverage, the weight of the gun comes into play. A Navy Colt weighs, loaded, just under about 3 pounds. So a small and light shooter, even using a two hand grip, should figure out if holding 3 pounds at arm's length is going to be a problem. Of course, nobody says you can't sit down and rest  the gun on a table top..."professional" shooters in competition do it that way. Or stand and rest the gun on a camera tripod or something like that.

Other Clint guns (in westerns) include the 1860 Army Colt and the Walker Colt from Josey Wales; the Army weighs very close to the same as the Navy. But the Walker Colt is a beast...about 16 inches long with its 9-1/2" barrel and weighing just a little less than 5 pounds loaded. Not a typo, five pounds. FIVE pounds  :o.

Pale Rider and Unforgiven had Clint guns (pistols) of a weight just about the same as the Navy and Army Colts.

All of the Clint pistols from the spaghetti westerns, Drifter, Josey Wales, Pale Rider, and Unforgiven are available from several manufacturers and retailers and there are several different conversion cylinders and black powder cartridges widely available for all those Clint guns.     
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« Reply #307 on: March 03, 2012, 11:23:18 PM »

Thinking more about a little lady shooting a 1851 Navy Colt....If a shooter is concerned about recoil, my thought is the best position is to hold your arm pretty much fully extended with your hand, arm, and shoulder muscles tensed as solid as possible just before pulling the trigger. Since an extended arm has less leverage, the weight of the gun comes into play. A Navy Colt weighs, loaded, just under about 3 pounds. So a small and light shooter, even using a two hand grip, should figure out if holding 3 pounds at arm's length is going to be a problem. Of course, nobody says you can't sit down and rest  the gun on a table top..."professional" shooters in competition do it that way. Or stand and rest the gun on a camera tripod or something like that.

Other Clint guns (in westerns) include the 1860 Army Colt and the Walker Colt from Josey Wales; the Army weighs very close to the same as the Navy. But the Walker Colt is a beast...about 16 inches long with its 9-1/2" barrel and weighing just a little less than 5 pounds loaded. Not a typo, five pounds. FIVE pounds  :o.

Pale Rider and Unforgiven had Clint guns (pistols) of a weight just about the same as the Navy and Army Colts. All of the Clint guns I've brought up here are in this afterthought are 44 caliber and, with the exception of the Walker, have the same recoil characteristics as I have described for the Navy Colt. The Walker has a max powder charge that is between 1.5 and 2 times the max load of the others. I have never fired a Walker and so do not personally know what its recoil is like. However, with its weight AND its powder charge being increased about the same 1.5/2X factor, its recoil into the hand of the shooter should be felt as just about the same as the Navy Colt.

In Josey Wales the grimace on Eastwood's face may not have been good acting. It may have simply been Clint's real reaction to having to hold up and wave around 2 guns weighing 5 pounds each!  

All of the Clint pistols from the spaghetti westerns, Drifter, Josey Wales, Pale Rider, and Unforgiven are available from several manufacturers and retailers and there are several different conversion cylinders and black powder cartridges widely available for all those Clint guns.    

OOPS.

I meant to edit my post but seem to have pressed the wrong button and made this additional post.

How to fix it?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 11:29:21 PM by The Man With No Aim » Logged

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« Reply #308 on: March 03, 2012, 11:37:38 PM »

OOPS.

I meant to edit my post but seem to have pressed the wrong button and made this additional post.

How to fix it?

Just click modify on the original post and make your changes in that and I'll remove the double post plus this one. :)
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« Reply #309 on: March 04, 2012, 01:37:10 AM »

IF weight & size are a concern there are also the various "police" models which have shorter barrels which obviously weigh less the 1862 is modeled on the 1860 Army but is chambered in .36 (same as the 1851 Navy) but is smaller, it also holds only 5 shots.

My preference is for the full-size 1860 Army (albeit with a shorter barrel), both because of the increased "stopping power" & because I find the Navy grip a little small.
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« Reply #310 on: March 04, 2012, 09:14:52 PM »

IF weight & size are a concern there are also the various "police" models which have shorter barrels which obviously weigh less the 1862 is modeled on the 1860 Army but is chambered in .36 (same as the 1851 Navy) but is smaller, it also holds only 5 shots.

My preference is for the full-size 1860 Army (albeit with a shorter barrel), both because of the increased "stopping power" & because I find the Navy grip a little small.


An excellent observation. It was a surprise to me to discover that in 1851 the average American male was about 5'- 6" height compared to about 6'-o" nowadays, and of course in proportion; the average male hand in 1851 was smaller. Meaning that in 1851 the Navy grip was a handful, whereas now it is on the small side. The larger grip of the 1860 probably was due to the realization that , in a rapid fire situation, the best way to quickly cock the hammer the next time is to position the hand lower on the grip. That gives the thumb more room after the first shot recoil has rolled the gun down into the valley between the thumb and first finger. With the hand positioned lower, it was sensible to make the handle longer.

My own personal preference in regular slow target shooting is to place my hand as high as possible on the grip. This is because I have the most control of the gun even if I am somehow surprised by the amount of recoil. I have always felt like it would be bad luck to drop my gun even when I am not in a shootout at high noon.
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« Reply #311 on: March 10, 2012, 07:19:46 AM »

Man With No Aim & I have been discussing Lee Van Cleef's gun from GBU, over on the Unforgiven page.

My contention is that Cleef is carrying an 1858 Remington New Army with a cylinder converted to use cartridges.


This is an image of an R&D Conversion Cylinder; the rear plate of the cylinder is removable to allow the cartridges to be inserted. When in use the plate makes the culinder look solid & flush..
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rojblake
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« Reply #312 on: March 10, 2012, 07:24:24 AM »





The pistol is much easier to make out here. The loading lever of the Remington is pretty distinctive, as is the grip design.
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« Reply #313 on: April 12, 2012, 01:57:20 AM »

My dear rojblake, you are barking up the wrong tree. I do not come into internet sites looking for fights. If you are, I am going to disappoint you. After this post, I have nothing more to say to you about LVC's pistol.

You are either missing the point, or are setting up a straw man.

You might be missing the point. My point was that, in the original photos , in this "discussion", I could not make out a break line at the rear of the cylinder. Even a poor reader should have noticed that. You may not be aware that, even decades ago, many times the cheapest "prop" was most often used in film scenes not requiring a gun be fired. The cheapest prop would have been a plastic replica or a reproduction gun without a conversion cylinder. Even decades ago, as it is today, the cost of a conversion cylinder is approximately equal to the original raw cost of the reproduction gun in cap-and-ball configuration. So if LVC were holding a converted gun it represented a total cost about double the raw cost of the original cap-and-ball gun, or much more if the film crew had to hire a machinist to custom make several one-off cylinders. So, it is most likely that LVC was holding an unconverted gun or a plastic gun in that specific photo.

My decisive clue, as I plainly wrote, was that I could not see a break line.

It is great fun to get on a site like this one and exchange positive ideas about things that we all commonly enjoy. It is a downer to be assaulted and baited into a pointless argument. It ain't happening. I have no more to say about the Remi identity of the gun or about whether or not I can seen a break line on my miniature computer screen.   
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« Reply #314 on: April 12, 2012, 04:48:10 AM »

I wasn't looking for a fight, just pointing out a few things that I noticed. You may be right that the pistol may have been plastic or whatever. The point that I WAS making was that the handgun in question is/was quite obviously a Remington 1858.

I have watched the end sequence very closely & the rear of the gun is very visible; the reason that I believe it to be a conversion is because the cut-outs for the nipples are very off. In my opinion that leads to it being a conversion because it is no longer a percussion pistol (no caps, etc.)...I would also point out that movie makers & prop departments back then made quite a few non-period pieces for conveinience.

In The Outlaw Josey Wales for example Clint's Walker colts, in several scenes, have obviously been modified to fire cartridges (& at that time I don't think such things were being done for the general public)

I was trying to answer a question, point of contention, sorry if doing so offended.
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« Reply #315 on: June 28, 2013, 09:45:40 PM »

Joe Kidd 

   


Hard to say what make the shotgun is.  There were several American companies of the day but like I always say a shotgun is a shotgun.  A shotgun shell, for those of you that don’t know, is usually comprised of shot, or little BB's or ball bearings, that when fired from the gun spread out in great diameter.  The further away from the barrel the “shot” fired the larger the pattern of shot spreads.  That’s why anyone with a shotgun can be an effective foe.  You don’t necessarily have to be a good shot to get results with a shotgun.


Here we see Joe with a 12 gauge Coach Gun...

The Coach gun was a double barrel shotgun that became popular with stagecoach drivers and guards, hence the name. Coach guns are scaled down in barrel length for easy handling and compactness usually around 20 inches, (36 overall).  More than likely always a 12 gauge, (sometimes 10) to get more bang for the buck.  Weighting around 9 pounds the gun was a crack open breechloader with side-by-side barrels.  The “Double Barrel” could never jam and it’s two external hammers, or rabbit ears, and double triggers made it relatively safe from accidental discharge thus requiring no safety.  Virtually indestructible and capable of firing under the most extreme conditions the gun could be reliable even if grossly soiled or battered around.  The most Important aspect was to keep your shells dry.  As long as you did that you were sitting in the drivers seat, no pun intended. 
 


Joe’s pistol here is a Colt 1873 SSA Cavalry model 7-½ inch barrel.





Now for the fun stuff.  Here we have the C-96 Mauser Broom handle, the first true automatic pistol.  Interestingly enough it was not designed by Paul Mauser but by three brothers by the last name of Feederle that worked for him in his experimental workshop.  The US army in WWII destroyed all records of all Mauser production and specs as they were ordered to burn the factory down by the brass.  Chambered for the 7.62 round, the precursor to the 9 mm, it had a very effective range and usually had a ten round “stripper” clip that you could just slide in the bottom, chamber a round and off you went.  They did have a 20 round clip but it was bulky and cumbersome hanging off the gun and not very efficient for travel. It’s holster, traveling case, was wooden and served as an attachable stock as seen with Joe Kidd above.  It was used to assassinate the last Czar Nicholas II   and Winston Churchill was known to carry one in the Boer Wars.  It’s funny to see this weapon in a Western but in doing some research I found that a few Spaghetti Westerns used them…Check it out...Fistful of Westerns



1896 Mauser "Broomhandle" 7.62mm


Han Solo's C-96 from Star Wars with a few special modifications.


Now comes the mystery rifle we see Joe Kidd with here picking off the henchman on the rocks.  I had an expert from a gun forum tell me that it is a Canadian Ross but by looking at the Ross myself it doesn’t really look like it to me.  I have compared it to literally hundreds of rifles but nothing of that time period seems to have that long exposed barrel.  One gun that it does look like is the Winchester model 70 but I believe that started production in the ’30’s, which is not to say it wasn’t used in the movie.     




The Winchester Model 70

Or the Canadian Ross????




I am thinking Johann Peterlongo rifle
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 09:03:19 AM by Savvy Jack » Logged
Mingo
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« Reply #316 on: September 27, 2013, 07:35:17 AM »

The rifle Joe used to snipe Mingo from the rocks is a Canadian Ross M-10 MkIII sporter in .280 Ross .
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« Reply #317 on: February 07, 2014, 07:41:56 AM »

I would love to have all the guns both Clint Eastwood and John Wayne used in my gun collection! I would have to build a warehouse sized addition to the house to contain them all but if I had the money to buy a collection like that, it wouldn't be a problem.
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« Reply #318 on: October 05, 2014, 01:24:13 PM »

Hi im new here and don't know if this has come up before... :) :) Dose anybody know if Clint used his own gun holster??? just asking as I have seen him wearing the same one in a few films dollars trilogy ect but just seen him wearing the same one in Joe Kidd plus it also looks the same one that Steve McQueen wore in the Magnificent seven

Thanks

Simon

p.s great site
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« Reply #319 on: October 05, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »

Hi, Jovifreak, and welcome to the Eastwood Web Board. You should find your answers in this thread:

http://www.clinteastwood.org/forums/index.php?topic=2609.0

I hope it helps! :)
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