News: Having trouble registering?  Please feel free to contact us at help[at]clinteastwood.org.  We will help you get an account set up.


0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this board.
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Steve's "The GOOD the BAD and the UGLY" or "UNFORGIVEN" thread  (Read 20266 times)
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« on: December 27, 2005, 10:16:19 AM »

This is a thread from one of the oldest versions of the Clint Eastwood Web Board. This was originally started in March, 1999. KC saved the thread and posted a link to it in one of our "reminiscing about the old days" threads. Since it was such a great thread, and everyone enjoyed reading it so much, I've decided to add it back to the board.

Thanks a lot to Steve (Sad Hill) for starting this great thread, and to KC for saving it.  :)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 01:16:34 AM by Matt » Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2005, 10:18:05 AM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-10-99 08:28 PM


OK everyone. GMAT has lit the fuse. This needs to be settled once and for all. Sad Hill cemetery is too distant (and besides, I unloaded GMAT's pistol!). So it's going to have to be settled here on THE BOARD.

Which film do you like the most? Which is your favorite western? The better of the two? The most watched and desired movie of the two greats?...The Good The Bad And The Ugly or Unforgiven?

Do not let my opinion that GBU is the greatest smokin' pistol & action packed western of them all sway you! Do not go to the Reception area of this board and read the post "I have a question..." which is full of reasons why GBU is superior, as I want all opinions to be objective.

ALL of you LURKERS out there...please come out just this once and post your non-biased opinions about how much more you like GBU (or vice versa!).

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend...those who like GBU...and those who like Unforgiven. Now take off that pistol belt!


------------------
"A couple steps back"
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2005, 10:20:23 AM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-10-99 08:43 PM


If it's a question of which is more of a "fan-favorite", then sure, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly wins out...but the issue is which is the better film, as Steve mentioned...don't misunderstand me...I LOVE The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...that said, I only rate it sixth among Clint's westerns...nor do I feel that it's the best of the "Dollars" films

...my ranking of the greatness of Clint's westerns:

1) Unforgiven

2) The Outlaw Josey Wales

3) High Plains Drifter

4) Pale Rider

5) For a Few Dollars More

6) The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

7) A Fistful of Dollars

8) Hang 'em High

9) Joe Kidd

10) Two Mules for Sister Sara

...my opinion...yes, there are reasons behind my rankings if people are interested

------------------
GMAT
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2005, 10:22:33 AM »

Originally posted by Steve,  03-10-99 08:58 PM   


If the issue is the better film...there is more to a film than a "deep" story. Entertainment is the bottom line and GBU fulfills all of the cravings for depth, personal identification with character, visuals, adrenaline paced excitement, surprise, anticipation...AND leaves you feeling pretty good in the end (unlike Unforgiven).

My favorites:

1. The Good the Bad and the Ugly
2. The Good the Bad and the Ugly
3. The Good the Bad and the Ugly
4. The Good the Bad and the Ugly
5. The Good the Bad and the Ugly
6. Unforgiven

------------------
"A couple steps back"
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2005, 10:24:38 AM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-10-99 09:17 PM


But does entertainment equal greatness?... early in his career, Michael Jordan may have been a more "entertaining" player with his high-wire acts...but it wasn't until his game matured and he became a smarter player and more of team player that the Bulls started winning championship after championship

...what you seem to be saying is that you enjoy The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly more, that it gives you more thrills and makes you feel warmer inside--but that doesn't mean that it's a better film ...Unforgiven is just better and greater, if not as "enjoyable," in every which way {but loose}...and Unforgiven is more than just a "deep story"...there are no ends to its depth...every discussion about the film is a beginning, not an end...it just goes on and on...and the cinematogrpahy, acting, directing, narrative...it has something more to say...it's on a different level...there is no end to it's depth

"You, of all people, should understand this."

(--the vigilante cops to Harry Callahan in Magnum Force)

...just look at all of your posts and threads about Unforgiven...have we, can we have similar discussions about The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?...no...as great a film as it is, there are limits to its ultimate intrigue, regardless of how enjoyable and entertaining it may be

with Unforgiven, there are no limits

"A man's got to know his limitations."

(or those of The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, as great as it is)

------------------
GMAT
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2005, 10:27:17 AM »

Originally posted by KC, 03-10-99 09:39 PM


Well, you know where I stand. Unforgiven has depth and tragic dimensions, two qualities I find lacking in GBU, which is essentially a comic opera on horseback. (A very good one ... don't misunderstand! I am an opera fan.) I even think, personally, Unforgiven is more entertaining ... after the dozenth or so viewing I began to grow impatient during some parts of GBU, but I never seem to tire of Unforgiven (or of talking about it, as all my friends will tell you). It has visual poetry and heart-wrenching performances, and a sense of inevitability about it that more than makes up for the lack of a "feel-good" ending. And it has as its background what one French critic called "a very pure love story," which is another aspect completely lacking in GBU ... I could go on and on, but since Steve says he is just asking for a vote here, I'll stop here and let the rest of you have a chance to weigh in with your opinions.

KC
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2005, 10:28:25 AM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-10-99 10:08 PM


Yes, after viewing The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly on numerous occasions, there are parts that seem to strain and even become a little bit tiresome...that's one of the reasons why I prefer For a Few Dollars More...it's leaner, sharper, shorter, and more elegant...Unforgiven just continues to resonate...and resonate...and resonate...

and yes, I personally find Unforgiven more "entertaining" and engrossing as well

------------------
GMAT
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 10:29:12 AM »

Originally posted by ibn, 03-10-99 10:36 PM 


Well, I'm a new member, although I read the board a lot. Man, I like this topic. I just bought a copy of GBU, and am watching it. I like GMAT's list, so here's mine:

1. Unforgiven
2. Pale Rider
3. Outlaw Josey Wales
4. For a Few Dollars More
5. Good, Bad, Ugly
6. Fistful of Dollars
7. Two Mules For Sister Sara
8. Hang 'em High
9. High Plains Drifter
and if it counts as a 'western'
10. The Beguiled

Thanks
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 10:30:34 AM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-10-99 10:54 PM


Well, The Beguiled is not a western, nor should it be counted as one, but thanks for your list...it's good to see people weighing in with their opinions

[by the way, I feel that The Beguiled, along with Honkytonk Man, is one of the great, underappreciated, and relatively (to the general public) unknown gems of Clint's long career]

oh, did you buy a widescreen copy of The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?

------------------
GMAT
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 10:33:23 AM »

Originally posted by Holden Pike, 03-10-99 10:55 PM


This is a pretty easy one for me. I don't even consider GB&U to be Leone's best western (Once Upon A Time in the West holds that distinction in my mind), so I would easily rank Unforgiven as the better film. Of course it's very hard to compare any of these, but in general I just love every single thing about Unforgiven. It is damn near flawless, and so complex and rich, and I also find it very "entertaining". Just because GB&U is more blatant and single-minded about being fun and exciting doesn't automatically mean that Clint's masterpiece is seriously lacking in either of those departments. I think Unforgiven IS fun, but it is also so much more. I don't think you can say the same for GB&U. It is easily Leone's most popular movie, and it does have tons of charm and style. It is, without a doubt, a classic movie - Western or otherwise - but Unforgiven is transcendant. Unforgiven is divine. Unforgiven is, well...IT.

My two cents. Keep the change.

Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 10:35:05 AM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-11-99 04:17 AM


This vote is FIXED!

Yes, GBU gives me more thrills and entertainment but I never said that it stopped there. Just because I enjoy it more does not mean that that is all there is to it. We ALL know that some of the greatest artistic films ever made never turned in any serious awards for the simple reason that the story may have been just too "out there" for the average viewer (or critic) but yet the production may be of the highest artistic creation. Are you saying the scenery is not as majestic? UNFORGIVEN had only a few scenes in it with majestic scenery compared to GBU. What about the score? Was UNFORGIVEN's musical score better too? And acting? Nobody in THAT film showed acting talent that came close to Eli Wallach's Tuco. In one 30 second scene, Wallach would change & turn his personality off and on like Thomas Edison's first working light bulb.

As for threads, I have seen some of the longest threads on the Leone board disecting micro details of GBU. It is MUCH more than just an action packed Western. And as I said, GBU is pure Western whereas I feel like UNFORGIVEN was a story which, oh by the way, just happened to take place during the "close" of the Old West. GBU took place around 1863-64. Leone even incorporated the American Civil War as the backdrop of its' storyline. The American Civil War is one of the most decisive and contoversial defining points in the history of this country.

UNFORGIVEN is definitely one of my favorite movies. But I wouldn't even necessarily consider it a true Western. I all actuality, UNFORGIVEN could have taken place in a small town in this country today. I think it does, considering all of the revenge and gang shootings going on.

In closing (since if I don't get going, I may end up losing my job and defending GBU for a living) The Good The Bad And The Ugly in my opinion, is ONE of the DEEPEST films I have ever seen and I think that fact gets way overlooked because it is so action packed it is easy to lose sight of that while (the average viewer) watches it.

DEEP ambiguous storylines does not a great movie make. Its a HELL of alot tougher making a film that not only delivers a thrill a minute but also gives you the deep complex storyline that we connoisseurs crave.


------------------
"A couple steps back"
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 10:36:10 AM »

Originally posted by ibn, 03-11-99 06:04 AM   



No, I got the pan-and-scan. Shame, but I couldn't find a different copy. I think that I consider the Beguiled a western because it takes place during that time period, and he is a soldier. I really like Honkytonk Man because I liked seeing Clint and his son together. There's really not any Clint film I don't like. I even own and like the Rookie, Pink Caddilac, and MITGGE.
While we're on GBU, I have a question. Someone told me that like the new Star Wars, GBU was a prequel. I thought about this, but that can't be. Colonel Mortimer is in FDM, and is killed at the end of GBU.
Thanks
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 10:37:07 AM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-11-99 06:20 AM


Mortimer and Angel eyes are 2 totally different characters which happened to be played by LVC. Supposedly, at the end of GBU....when Blondie picks up the poncho, that is where he got it for the other 2 dollars films....

------------------
"A couple steps back"
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 10:39:10 AM »

Originally posted by ibn, 03-11-99 06:37 AM


I thought they called him Mortimer at the front, and Tuco calls him Angel Eyes. Plus, Clint and Tuco seem to know him. Thanks for the help. Also what does Manco mean?
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 10:40:34 AM »

Originally posted by Holden Pike, 03-11-99 06:48 AM


Steve, Buddy, Pal....you don't have to convince us that GB&U is a great movie. We can ALL agree on that. It's simply a mater of taste. It's not like we're saying we like frippin' Pink Cadillac more than GB&U, we simply favor Unforgiven. It's hard to go wrong choosing between the two.

And I do think that Hackman and Freeman give amazing performances in Unforgiven, at least the equal of Wallach's wonderful Tuco. But I think this only further highlights the differences between the two films. It is a completely different acting style, just as the directing, editing, locations, and music are also completely different. Both styles are great, but really VERY different (thank God).

I hate to resort to this hackneyed expression all the time, but we're caught in an apples and oranges quagmire. However, just because you may favor one to the other doesn't automatically make the other inferior, just different. You can eat an apple without judging oranges, yes? I like to eat (watch) both.
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2005, 10:41:37 AM »

Originally posted by ibn, 03-11-99 07:47 AM


But GBU has a certain...bigness...about it, in it's defense. I mean it was a good director, taking his pupil, and making a huge movie. Even though Unforgiven had such a bigger budget, it seems smaller. I like GBU, and I think on some levels it is bettter than Unfogiven. But Unforgiven has great stars, great cast, and a great story. You walk away thinking. I mean Unforgiven was making a statement about violence in the West. It's making a statement about films like GBU. Me and my bother argue over this. He hates it, saying there are no good guys. Clint kills the guy with a broken leg, and blows everyone away at the end. William Munny was a jerk  I mean, he was a drunk. That's why it so great. I mean, how many Roy Rogers are there?
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 10:42:25 AM »

Originally posted by KC, 03-11-99 08:48 AM


Unforgiven actually had a very low budget for its time. I believe it was around fourteen million ... chicken feed for 1992.

Manco means "maimed" or "deprived of the use of one hand" in Spanish (Monco means the same thing in Italian). It appears to be a sobriquet referring ironically to the fact that the character never uses his right hand ... except for shooting. (It definitely does not mean "monk," as some commentators have asserted.)

KC
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 10:43:58 AM »

Originally posted by Unicorn, 03-11-99 11:24 AM


Ok. Ok. Let me settle all this bickering. Unforgiven is the best of all the Eastwood westerns. Why? It's the type of movie one never gets tired of watching (at least I don't).

Experience played a major roll in the developing of this movie. The times and ratings have changed so much, more was able to be done in the movie: the language, beatings, violence, etc. When movies were made back in the 50s and 60s, it was like "fairy tale westerns," because the violence, language, sex, etc., wasn't allowed. I saw a special awhile back where Marilyn Monroe wasn't able to open-mouth kiss her leading man. She was upset about it. However, you knew they did it in real life. Why not on the screens. Just one of those things--until the 70s and 80s came. One of my friends was offended by Unforgiven because of all the violence, etc. That was her opinion. She missed the whole point--that's how they were in those days: restless and taking matters in their own hands. Anybody know how long the wild west days lasted? I heard it was about 30 or 40 years.

In addition, Clint wanted the film to be so authenic that everyone who was involved in the movie had to stay on the set--no cars allowed. I imagine everyone looked and smelled like they did back then.

Can you imagine living in a town without plumbing, electricity, air conditioning/heating systems--things we take for granted. I love the way the women dressed in the westerns; however, I would never in a million years want to be one of them.

Speaking of westerns, I was channel surfing the other night and saw that High Plains Drifter was beginning. I got all excited; then I realized it was in Spanish. I waited and waited and waited to hear the Clint's voice. I hee-hawed when I heard it. It wasn't at all like Clint's voice. It was a very low (bass) voice. It was great. There were times as I was watching the movie when I said (in English) what Clint said in Spanish. My husband turned to me and said, "Before too long you are going to know the entire script of each one of his movies."

------------------
Cheryl
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 10:45:14 AM »

Originally posted by KC, 03-11-99 12:29 PM


The cast and crew didn't actually have to stay on the Unforgiven set. They were not allowed to enter it in motor vehicles however, but had to rely on a special horse-drawn "bus" or ride their own horses—probably not all the way from their diggings, which were several miles off in a "civilized" town, but from some sort of "base camp." (This was in order not to have the town's pristine dust and mud spoiled by tire tracks.) However, Big Whiskey was a "practical" town (no false fronts), built from scratch by the wonderful Henry Bumstead and his crew. It's said that every one of those buildings could have used for shooting a scene, though in fact the only interiors on view are Greely's, the barber shop and the "County Office" (Little Bill's lair). Sad to think that it was all torn down when shooting finished (though, of course, I'm glad it wasn't made into a theme park).

KC
Logged
Matt
Global Moderator
Member Extraordinaire
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13908



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 10:46:07 AM »

Originally posted by Conan, 03-11-99 12:36 PM


As most people have agreed, "Unforgiven" was deeper and was more than just a hollywood shoot-em-up. That's not to say that "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" was nothing more than a shoot-em-up. It's very close for me, I am a Josey Wales man myself, but after that "Unforgiven" only beats TGTBTU by a hair. I will break it down(Note: these numbers don't represent the score in relation to one another, but movies in general; give me any other movie picked at random and chances are the numbers would be low, these 2 movies are nearly perfect so the numbers are going to be high):

Unforgiven:
Acting - 10
Cinematography - 8
Plot - 10
Action - 9
Dialogue - 10
Music/Sound - 9

TGTBTU:
Acting - 9
Cinematography - 10
Plot - 8
Action - 10
Dialogue - 8
Music/Sound - 10

Action is not really the amount of action, but the quality of it. And of course, there are many things that this list doesn't include that make TGTBTU and "Unforgiven" great movies. But this is one way that I analyze a movie. I tends to work better with Non-Eastwood flicks because the numbers are more varied, like "Titanic", which would get a 10 for cinematography, but a 4 for plot. It is a tough one for me Steve. "Unforgiven" by a hair.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 Go Up Print 
 




C L I N T E A S T W O O D . N E T