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Author Topic: Steve's "The GOOD the BAD and the UGLY" or "UNFORGIVEN" thread  (Read 20597 times)
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« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2005, 11:24:46 AM »

Originally posted by John Paul, 03-12-99 03:10 PM


What's going on here? Everybody have the day off?

GBU far and away. If Clint could have made this film at the time he made Unforgiven, we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Unforgiven is a GREAT movie. No argument. But let's meet again 20 years or so from now and see where it's at. Although Oscar's presence pretty much assures a predictable history.

I like these kind of threads, don't you? They are so subjective. Which, of course, renders them somewhat farcical in that whenever one starts making comparisons, open go the gates of argument.

Pace!
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« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2005, 11:25:55 AM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-12-99 04:11 PM



John Paul is the MAN!
My sentiments exactly.

As for UNFORGIVEN ... [image no longer available]

That's my vote!

OK, time to see Thin Red Line...Back later!

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« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2005, 11:26:48 AM »

Originally posted by KC, 03-12-99 06:35 PM


Is Thin Red Line your girlfriend's idea of a chick flick ... or did you get to pick the movie after all?
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« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2005, 11:28:46 AM »

Originally posted by CR, 03-12-99 07:21 PM

Assistant? Hell, KC, if I get the Unforgiven job, I'll make you a full fledged partner. I'd be so giddy, I'd probably be rendered completely useless anyway.

Agreed, as far as both scenes when it looks like Munny may be dying. The "don't tell my kids none of the things I done", etc. lines compose one of the great western-legend-demystifying bits of dialogue in the movie, especially considering the Kid is there, hearing it. Oh, good Lord what a film!

John Paul, as for where Unforgiven will be 10 years from now, I firmly believe that it will be even more revered than it is now. And barring some greater future work, I think it'll pretty obviously be regarded as Eastwood's masterpiece, and the culmination of the Western genre.

GBU and the rest of the Dollars movies will always be among the essential Westerns, and certainly defined it stylistically, and I love them to death, but I think Unforgiven at it's most...I don't know, it's just a more thorough exploration of the genre--way more thorough; it's peerless--than there has, and maybe ever will be.

I don't know--I'm at a loss. Somebody else finish this post, I've talked (typed) myself out. Plus, this computer's on the floor.
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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2005, 11:29:42 AM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-12-99 08:32 PM

That's right KC...I got to pick the movie! And...BONUS! It was at the $3 theater!

Usually, I have to go to a chick fick every so often so I can see my consecutive choice of films. Last chick flick, "Message In A Bottle". Personally, I thought it was good...and one of Costner's best appearances (next to DANCES... & Perfect World). A GREAT performance by Paul Newman.

Thin Red Line was ONE DEEP MOVIE. Reminded me of UNFORGIVEN. "U" definitely has a deeper statement to make than GBU. As a matter of fact, I don't even think that there was any intentional statement being made in GBU other than the fact that it was one man's (or a combination of) viewpoint of what the old west was like. I think it was strictly pure entertainment which delved into what people like most: good old fashioned shoot em up and cheatin death.

UNFORGIVEN is DEFINITELY making a statement about the Old West and the myths thereof while at the same time presenting a storyline which more than holds your attention, it completely consumes you and humanizes the entire myth.

To me, GB&U is not only an extremely entertaining film, but provides character interaction as interesting as the plot. You could watch this movie and thoroughly enjoy it without ever having to understand any deep seeded message.

I wish there was more time in a day, as I would gladly stay up all night long and watch them both back to back and feel like it was time well spent. (I'd watch GBU first though!).

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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2005, 01:53:55 PM »

Originally posted by Holden Pike, 03-12-99 08:33 PM


I think the real kicker is that, even though they are playing along for the purposes of this topic's question, many of us Clint devotees here, if they had to pick between Unforgiven and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly would pick....The Outlaw Josey Wales. I'm still surprised how many people like that one SO much (I guess on Conan's point system it would garner straight 10s - even in the acting category while Ms. Locke is prominent in the cast). It finished a little behind GB&U so far in the "favorite Western" question of the voting booth on the main page, and both beat Unforgiven soundly (with High Plains Drifter right on its heels). There seems to be a subtle distinction between what some of us think is Clint's BEST Western and which of his is our personal FAVORITE.

I know what we ALL agree on: Clint has been in a good percentage of the best Westerns EVER MADE. The rest is just a matter of quibbling over rank.

Even though quibbling is silly because Unforgiven is so clearly the best of the best.
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« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2005, 01:55:31 PM »

Originally posted by George Kaplan, 03-12-99 08:43 PM


And Hi-Ho Steverino: why is this question filling up the Reception Area? Could a topic BE more Western-related? If'n you can't follow instructions we're going to have to give you the same outhouse treatment that Quick Mike got (not quick enough, was he)! Either that or bring us some ponies come the Spring.
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« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2005, 01:56:44 PM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-12-99 08:56 PM


Well giddy-up cowboy.

Because it was HERE in the reception area that the question arose, that's where I made the post. besides, it's more of a general question about which film you like best rather than directly related to Westerns.

Besides, as I have said...I don't even consider UNFORGIVEN a true western in the sense of the word, rather...a story which happened to take place in the 1880's (ohhhh boy. Is this going to open up some more controversy or what?!).

Whew! Look at the time. I better hurry up and pop in my GB&U tape before it gets too much later. Now, where is it? Oh, there it is... leaning up against Unforgiven (I use that as a bookend for my "Dollars" tapes

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« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2005, 01:57:24 PM »

Originally posted by Manco, 03-12-99 09:17 PM


I personally think that GBU is Clint's and Leone's best film. I also like THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES and I love ONCE-WEST but GBU still entertains me more than them. It's the one with the most emotional and visceral and cinematic impact for me. Question for Steve: what would you say is your single favorite shot in GBU? Mine would be the camera movement where Tuco sees the hanging noose and the camera moves up to it and looks at his figure through the circle of rope! With Morricone's scream it's a perfect moment of cinema.
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« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2005, 01:59:05 PM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-12-99 10:22 PM


I've often thoguht of that Manco, but that is a tough one...there are SO many.

Obviously, I like it when Clint gives the 3 Bounty Hunters a warning and tells them to take "a couple steps back". A full 30 seconds of nothing but the crickets chirping before.....!

I LOVE the scene where Tuco and Blondie awaken from exhausted sleep and continue in their pursuit of the gold. No words are spoken until the cemetery scene...yet a thousand words are conveyed. That awesome Morriconne score starts out low and slowly builds as Blondie and Tuco cross the river, wade through destruction and come across the dying Confederate. I just love that scene.
Like the very first scene in the movie...it's like a silent film. No dialog necessary. Not too many films could do that and succeed without becoming tiring to watch, yet Leone did it time and time again in GB&U masterfully.

When Blondie surprises Tuco after his bath and Tuco is relieved to see that Blondie is there (or so Tuco thinks) to be his partner again...his jubilance turns to let down and despair as he realizes Blondie is there because there are 5 of Angel Eyes' party, "five?". Tuco asks for no help at all from Blondie "it doesn't matter, I'll kill 'em all!".

During the Sad Hill Cemetery shoot out when Tuco's intensity turns to horror as he realizes his pistol is empty and Blondie slowly walks towards him...pistol in hand, and Tuco flinches fearing Blondie is about to kill him (OK UNFORGIVEN fans, this part reminds me of Will Munny atop the hill after retrieving the bounty money, "you don't have to worry kid. I ain't gonna kill you. You're the only friend I got").

And no one can forget the classic scene of Blondie bringing a hog tied Tuco into town to the sheriff's office as Tuco spits insult upon insult at Blondie. Tied, beaten and at Blondie's mercy..."you can still save yourself...let me go and I'll pardon you, LET ME GO!".

And Angel Eyes...killing Baker because the man that Baker hired him to kill gave Angel Eyes "a thousand...& some in gold!" before he was killed. "Oh yeah, I almost forgot. He gave me a thousand. I think his idea was that I kill you...but you know the pity is...when I'm paid, I always follow my job through...you know that." That is truly an evil man! The lantern goes out...the room darkens...

Tuco...about to shovel a spoonful of...slop into his mouth but stops just short of taking his first bite as Angel Eyes takes a spoonful himself out of Tuco's bowl and then Tuco starts shoveling the....slop in "I-I-I knew it, I knew it! I said, look at that pig Angel Eyes! I bet he has an easy job...and he never forgets a friend!" "I never forget old friends Tuco".

I could go on...and on! This is reminding me of why I am so adamant about The Good the Bad and the Ugly being the GREATEST movie of ALL time! DAMN..I love this film!

Adios....half soldier!
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« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2005, 02:13:10 PM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-12-99 11:33 PM 


The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, as great as it is, simply pales in comparison to Unforgiven...the former does not belong in the same sentence, paragraph, post, or thread with the latter...Unforgiven is just unbelievable...everytime I think about it, read about, view it, listen to the music...I'm just overwhelmed...the depth of the film is just infinite...every single time I read about the film, I learn something new...the statements that are made by the film just reach the core of my soul with their resonance...Unforgiven is just unbelievable...I don't think that the overall, pure greatness of it can ultimately ever be described or captured...every shot, every word, every movement...it can be just analyzed over, and over, and over, and over, and over...and we still never reach an end...it is infinitely deep and infinitely rich...can the same be stated about The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?...absolutley not...Unforgiven is better in every and any which way...Steve loves the acting in GBU...it's great and memorable and iconoclastic...but it's much deeper, refined, ambiguous, poignant, realistic, richer, sophisticated, and balanced in Unforgiven...there is no comparison...the cinematography in Unforgiven is just better and more beautiful...I've never seen a film with better cinematography...sure, GBU has a more epic and sweeping feel, but Unforgiven is much more beautiful to look at...the music really can't be compared, but Lennie Niehaus' score for Unforgiven is just so poignant and moving that it ultimately makes much more of an impact for me...let's face it...Steve is addicted to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...he can't help himself, so he must be excused...the rest of you (John Paul, Manco) have not fully realized the greatness of Unforgiven...if you ever do, you will realize that there really is no comparison...listen to myself, KC, Holden, and CR...we know what we're talking about...if you were to sit down with the film, on DVD (with KC's widescreen television), I'm sure that we'd show you what you are so sadly missing...truthfully, this entire thread should not even exist...Unforgiven is so unbelievable that it does not even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...Unforgiven deserves better...but then, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it," which is the only reason why this thread even exists...there you go, Unforgiven has all of the answers...CR is the man...look at his posts in this thread...the magnificence of Unforgiven transcends language...The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly doesn't even compare...I'm with CR (and Richard Schickel, and ibn, and Troy on the Leone board) on For a Few Dollars More...it's better than The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...I don't even think that The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is the best of the "Dollars" films...this thread has far and away out-grossed any other in the history of the Eastwood Web Board...this is the 49th response to the original post...the old record was 38, for, yes, an Unforgiven thread...this is the equivalent of a $200 million grosser...Steve is the Steven Spielberg of the Eastwood Web Board...he's directed several of the highest grossing threads of all time...the irony is that this thread shouldn't even exist, because there is no contest...The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a great western...but Unforgiven is light years ahead of it, and to even compare it to GBU is to fail to acknowledge the true greatness of Clint's masterpiece... Unforgiven is, to respond to Steve's claim, more of a western than The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...GBU is more of a spaghetti western, of course, but the overall themes and concerns of Unforgiven make it a more of a pure western because of how it examines the mythology of the western in a much, much deeper and more consequential way than GBU could even dream of doing...it's much easier to transfer the basic story GBU to modern times...it's just that the statements of Unforgiven are much more prescient...and John Paul, Unforgiven will be remembered long after The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, even though the latter is a classic...critical reading on films and westerns will show that GBU receives about 1% of the critical attention that Unforgiven does...most critics don't even consider GBU to be Leone's best western (Once Upon a Time in the West), and I, along with some others, don't even feel that it's the best of the "Dollars" films...Holden made two salient points when he stated that no matter how one slices it, Clint has been involved in a good percentage of the greatest westerns of all time, especially the modern era of westerns, and also that people are failing to distinguish between what is their favorite western and what is the best western...The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is much more of a "fan-favorite" than Unforgiven... GBU is a classic, and for good reason...but to even think about comparing it to Unforgiven is erroneous...CR, KC, and Holden have basically been saying that as well...Steve, Eli Wallach gives a brilliant perfomance in GBU, but it isn't anywhere near as deep, sophisticated, subtle, and refined as any of the major (or even some of the minor) performances in Unforgiven...as far as character interplay is concerned, it's great, memorable, and very stylish in GBU, but again, it doesn't come anywhere close to the level of depth, complexity, moral ambiguity, and sophistication as the interplay in i]Unforgiven[/i]...GBU is far from just a "shoot 'em up"...I love the film...but Unforgiven is just on a completely different level...this highest grossing thread of all time shouldn't even exist, because, really, there is no comparison

Steve is addicted to GBU...it clouds his mind, so he can't help himself

the rest of you who favor GBU simply need to spend more time with Unforgiven

trust in myself, Holden, KC, and CR...we know what we're talking about...there is no real comparison...Unforgiven is just light years ahead

CR, what I meant was that Jordan was more aerially spectacular earlier in his career...nothing can beat that last, celestial minute against Utah last year...that's like Jordan's Unforgiven ...winning the slam-dunk contest in 1988 would be his The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly...both moments are incredible, spellbinding, and timeless, but there is a distinct difference from that spectacular, classic, slam-dunk moment in '88, and that final, celestial, beautiful, artful, championship moment in '98...it's the same difference that exists between The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and Unforgiven...perhaps through Michael Jordan we can finally see the difference between these films

CR, about Pale Rider, I think that it's very intelligent, intricate, and sly if one really goes into it...and the cinematography is second only to Unforgiven...I'd rather not start the discussion in this thread, but let's bring it over to the westerns section, and I'll be glad to discuss

Oh, CR, I also love Vertigo (unlike KC and Holden)...it's one of my favorite films of all time, and I think that Unforgiven, Vertigo, and The Searchers are, in that order, the three richest films that I've ever seen and studied...and, in my opinion, they are the respective masterpieces of three of the great masters, Clint Eastwood, Alfred Hitchcock, and John Ford...three films that become infinitely richer, deeper, and incredible with each subsequent viewing...a mark of ultimate filmmaking


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« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2005, 02:14:16 PM »

Originally posted by Conan, 03-12-99 11:39 PM


On my top ten favorite movies of all time, 4 of them are Eastwood flicks. There is this weird feeling I get when I watch TGTBTU, "Unforgiven", and "The Outlaw Josey Wales" (the other one on my top 10 is "High Plains Drifter") which I don't get when I see, whether in flipping channels or just popping in a tape to have something on, my non-Eastwood favorites(top 10 or top anything). Anyways, if I turn off the VCR to do something else or change the channel I feel guilty, like I am doing one of these 3 great movies an injustice. TGTBTU was run many, many times on TNT & TBS and it would run, always without fail when I am studying for a test. I have the VHS(holding out a while for DVD) copy of course, but it is hard not to just have it on. Who am I to choose Math 235 over Eastwood? So of course, one thing leads to another and I'm glued. No other movies do that to me, and all three are Eastwood.

By the way Steve, you might want to edit out that "Unforgiven" ban sign that was in one of your previous posts. That is a hanging offense 'round these parts. Wow, I think this thread broke a record for most posts.
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« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2005, 02:16:03 PM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-12-99 11:42 PM


Steve, those moments that you mentioned are all classic...I LOVE them as well...but while they're stylish and great on a surface level, there's not all that much behind them...you see, Unforgiven has something more to say...more sophistication, depth, refinement, subtlety, beauty...GBU may be more blatantly entertaining, but Unforgiven just transcends blatant enterainment...some of you are failing to distinguish between which is your favorite, and which is the best...I know that's tough to do, but it's a valuable skill to have, and those of you who think that GBU is better need to acquire it...as for humor, how about Ned saying to Will, "So...you just...use your hand?"...NOTHING in GBU beats that

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« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2005, 02:16:45 PM »

Originally posted by KC, 03-12-99 11:55 PM

And no end in sight ...
Going back a few posts (what have I been doing all evening? Just working on a project with a deadline coming up like a freight train, that's all), Holden, I mean George, I guess I deserve some pretty harsh treatment too, not only did I just put a long post about Unforgiven into this forum, it's actually on the thread that started out to be about Stanley Kubrick ... just can't stop talking about that movie.

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« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2005, 02:20:18 PM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-13-99 12:01 AM


As Conan indicated, Clint has had so many great westerns (I count seven of the greatest modern westerns of all time), and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is one of them...don't misunderstand me...however...

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a showcase film of the planet Earth.

Unforgiven is a showcase film of the stars.

Unforgiven transcends its genre, its medium, language, emotion, even humanity...few films have ever "done" as much as Unforgiven

Steve, I agree, GBU is a showcase for this planet...but Unforgiven is a showcase for the universe...if some alien were to see GBU, he would probably love it, adore this creation of human beings, and patronize humans for this stylish, comical, and charming adventure...but Unforgiven would transcend the alien's soul, and make him bow down to human beings in admiration and serious (as opposed to comical) wonder

GBU would make an alien patronize, and even respect, humans.

Unforgiven, with its transcendental impact, would make an alien bow down to human beings.

Steve, you said that GBU would make you skip out of the theater in excitement...but that Unforgiven would just leave you sitting there, wondering, reflecting, sadly contemplating...see the difference?...see the difference between what is one's favorite and what is the best?...I thought so

Man, we have exhausted this topic...but one more point...Steve, you'd better remove that cross from the Unforgiven image...otherwise, we'll all come down to Manassas and hang you high

(and this time, there will be no Ben Johnson and his tumbleweed wagon to rescue you)

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« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2005, 02:25:20 PM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-13-99 06:16 AM


"...it looks like it's going to be a good long posting thread"

-Hey Cal! I think you need to turn the GB&U theme on whenever someone comes into this posting thread!

From the undisputed KING of thread topics

I say to you, GMAT, undisputed KING of longest posts!:

The MORE you try to tell ME which film is better, the MORE I am turning AWAY from UNFORGIVEN as being such a GREAT movie. I DIDN'T like it 6 years ago, and I am beginning to DESPISE it now as it is being JAMMED down my throat as a film which seemimgly GOD himself could not top!

I think it's a conspiracy
home.att.net/~stevepitt/nazi.wav
against me!!!

I already stated that UNFORGIVEN is a DEEPER movie. But I ALSO stated that DEEP messages DO NOT a good movie make. I think that the CRYING GAME had some kind of a DEEP message but I remember thinking it was just a weird movie that I would have NO DESIRE to ever want to see again.

Me sitting in the theater after UNFORGIVEN is over and sitting there (I did not say in awe) does not mean it had a GREATER impact on me. Maybe it means, "damn, I just spent $7.50 on this sorry excuse for a movie? I want to see these credits so I can find out who to contact and file my displeasure" or maybe it means "I am so depressed now...I don't even want to go out into a world that is so inhumane, so cruel, so...unpredictable. DAMN. That's it. Those [email protected] who were talking in the back behind me through this whole film...I am going to the pawn shop next door and get a .45 auto, come back in here and kill all 5 of those pr!cks at close range! Any man tries to take a shot at me as I leave this theater, I'm not only gonna kill him...but I'll kill his wife, and all his friends (or boyfriends)
...burn his damn apartment down!"

Skipping out of the theater after seeing GB&U may mean "what a film! I love those characters! I wish I was just like Blondie! (who the phuck would want to be just like Will Munny?) What an ending! Blondie didn't turn his back on Tuco in the end! There is hope for humanity after all! Blondie could have killed Tuco after having shared MONTHS of partnership together like a TRUE piece of sh!t would, but he didn't! And Tuco...wow! What a miserable low-life self centerd scum licking [email protected] HE is. But wait..he IS a human! He cried at the news of his mother and father! He somewhat even CHANGED after that. He began to see that Blondie WAS someone he could count on as (maybe?) a friend. He even TRUSTED him to tell his share of the secret FIRST & TRUTHFULLY (unlike the "good" Blondie). I feel good about this film! What a ride! I am going to go out and find a partner and look for the pot of gold at the other end of the rainbow myself!"

Pretty big difference. What good was it to see a "message" in a film if that was the result? Yeah Yeah, maybe you walked out of UNFORGIVEN feeling like a million bucks. Fine. I felt the same way about GB&U. Still do. Why is it that everybody seems to think there has to be some DEEP DEEP inner lying message in a movie? Maybe it was made to be "INTERESTING", or GOD FORBID... "FUN"!

You think it is easy taking on the whole board of Clint/UNFORGIVEN lovers? "Come on...preach me a sermon GMAT! Well I, GBU STEVE, brother of Brother GMAT will tell you something...YOU think you are better than I am. Where we came from, you either loved GB&U or you had nothing to love at all. You chose YOUR way, I chose mine! MINE was harder! You talk about UNFORGIVEN...You don't remember those days without it. I musta been 10...12 when GBU came out, I don't remember which. I tried to love UNFORGIVEN as much as GBU, but it was no good. Now I'm going to tell you something...you became an UNFORGIVEN lover because you are too much of a coward to love GB&U like I do!"

Quote
Steve is addicted to GBU...it clouds his mind, so he can't help himself. - GMAT, posted above)

Are YOU kidding me? With YOUR endless diatribes about UNFORGIVEN??!!! If I am addicted to GB&U and my mind is clouded...then YOU are equally if not doubly addicted with a clouded mind to UNFORGIVEN!

And ACTING???

Quote
...much deeper, refined, ambiguous, poignant, realistic, richer, sophisticated, and balanced in Unforgiven...there is no comparison...
    -GMAT (as posted above)


WHY is it that the acting was SO GREAT in UNFORGIVEN? Give me an example of these adjectives. They all acted within their character as was required of them. It was wonderful for sure but I didn't see a one who out did Eli Wallach's character acting. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Eli Wallach's performance reminded me of one of these people with multiple-personalities. And did he ever play it off superbly.

"Ahhh, my brain is full. Nice guy that GMAT. I didn't tell you all that GMAT is practically in charge here! EVERYTHING! Like the Pope almost..& he's in charge of Rome! Everytime we post here...its always the same story. I like GB&U...he likes UNFORGIVEN. That so...even a GB&U lover like me, no matter what happens...I know there is a Clint brother out there who will never refuse me...a bowl of soup"

THAT said...I think it is obvious that THIS posting THREAD should DEFINITELY exist. It's obvious that there is much to debate concerning this subject. And THAT is what this awesome communications tool (compliments, Cal Anderson) is for. For you to announce that UNFORGIVEN is SO great that ALIEN beings should bow down before us humans further exemplifies your clouded mind...AND your "addiction" to UNFORGIVEN. You need to be more objective GMAT.

DAMN...and I was JUST starting to put UNFORGIVEN into the same class of excellence as The Good the Bad and the Ugly.

Now. I know there is a bounty on my head for that defiled UNFORGIVEN graphic at the top of this page. Looks like I am going to have to take a lesson from Tuco Ramirez in survival!

Well Holden, I told you. I have been lurking...and I usually only post when I am really passionate about a subject. Looks like I am alone here.

"Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you. There are hundreds of 'em."
"hundreds?...it doesn't matter, I'll take 'em all on!"


"...and after posting, there's nothing like a good cigar..."


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« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2005, 02:26:36 PM »

Originally posted by Sam_Richmond, 03-13-99 07:06 AM


It’s hard to compare ‘The Good, The Bad and The Ugly’ with ‘The Unforgiven’ because (as a lot of people have stated) they are completely different films – apart from the fact they both feature the worlds greatest actor.

However, it is easy to have your own personal favourite and mine is ‘The Good, The Bad and The Ugly’ but this is because, like Steve I am a fanatical about this film.

I’ve watched ‘The Unforgiven’ about 10 times now and its possibly only in the last 3 that I’ve watched it that I have seen what makes it a great film. The deep plot of ‘The Unforgiven’ makes it a great western, it contains some of the worlds greatest actors and features some breathtaking scenery. For me, it’s the character of William Munny, which makes the film great – or perhaps more so his past exploits, his slow transition into a “bad guy” and his future (and his future as a greengrocer if I remember correctly) 

On the other hand I’ve watched ‘The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly’ hundreds of times and have never tired of watching it – and never will. This film is a masterpiece of cinematography but is under-rated by many on the web board as ‘a comic piece of opera’. Maybe I have not seen ‘The Unforgiven’ enough those who suggest that the plot of ‘The Good, The Bad and The Ugly’ is shallow are overlooking something. It is hard for me to pinpoint what makes this film a classic western but it is probably a combination of factors:

To begin with there is the trio – Eastwood, Wallach and Van Clef. If Leone scowered the globe for the rest of his days I don’t think he could have got actors to fit the bill better than these three. Wallach especially – he fitted into the role of Tuco like a glove. Some might say that the demands of playing the man-with-no name were not great since does not say much. Clint was ideal for this role because he is as cool as ice who just needs to give ‘that look’ instead of saying anything. With his beady eyes, black clothes, black horse and a laugh that the devil himself would be proud of, Van Clef makes Angel Eyes a character to be feared.

The acting is superb – the wealth of talent that Wallach brought into the film and his ability to chance mood with ease makes Tuco one of my all time favourite film characters. He also adds the comedy to the film, which is another of this majestic film’s strong points. Being cool and calculated, Clint is another fantastic actor who, with his gun slinging and cigar swivelling antics puts in his best performance as the man-with-no name.

The plot that is described by some as ‘comic’ has more to it than meets the eye. The film shows the interaction of 3 different kinds of people “good”, “bad” and “ugly”. Tuco keeps reminding us that there are 2 kinds of people in the world – but are there 3? It is only at the end of the film that you find out the true nature of Blondie. It was obvious throughout the film that he was “the good” but when he re-cocks his gun after killing Angel Eyes, anything could have happened – was he within his rights as “the good” to shoot “the ugly”. Amongst all of this we have the tragedy of war, a treasure hunt and some of the best western shoot out scenes and film quotes ever. Oh, I forgot to mention - there is also the best musical score ever to accompany this epic.

So there we go – the ingredients for a defining, piquant, historic and overall thoroughly entertaining film. I can’t wait to see the extra 14 minutes of footage on DVD.

It seems that we are out-gunned Steve. But I do agree with GMAT – there is a difference between favourite and best. Favourite is objective and best is subjective – but is what is your favourite not often best for you? I don’t think this argument will ever be settled. They are both fantastic films.

That’s enough of my rambling.

“Cannon fire or storm its all the same to you my friend…”

Ian
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« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2005, 02:27:55 PM »

Originally posted by Not-so Rowdy Yates, 03-13-99 07:15 AM   


CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!?!?!

Please, Y'all, learn the gift of agreeing to disagree...without making the other guy out to be an @sshole. I envision a day, Brothers and Sisters, where ALL great Clint Eastwood Westerns are created equal, and judged not by the number of Oscars they have won or how often they are broadcast by Ted Turner, but judged as what they are: THE BEST OF THE BEST, ONE AND ALL. Can I get an Amen?

It's all good, People. Less'n that is we're talking about "The Rookie". That movie blows.... 
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« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2005, 02:29:34 PM »

Originally posted by Steve, 03-13-99 07:25 AM


I love it! This thread just keeps getting better and better!

Don't worry Rowdy, it's all tongue-in-cheek But that doesn't belittle my passion for GB&U. THAT is for REAL!

Mr. Sam Richmond, you add to my sentiments. And make points that I cannot come up with alone. Glad to see that you see it the way I also see it!

Hey CAL! How much space on that server do you have left?!!!

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« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2005, 02:34:17 PM »

Originally posted by GMAT, 03-13-99 07:39 AM


Ah, but I'm not the only one who finds so Unforgiven so fascinating and brilliant...KC, Holden, CR, there are many of us...plus, look at all of the critical attention that it received...nine Oscar nominations, four Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Director...a place among the AFI's 100 greatest American films of all time...a gross in excess of $101 million at the domestic box-office alone...sure, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a classic film and a great, important, and defining western...but Unforgiven is just on an entirely different level...that's all I'm saying...Unforgiven has far more than just infinite depth and richness...it is flawless in all categories, and has plenty of humor along the way...it's concerned with real people and human beings, not inconoclastic myths...it also has a distinctive feminine presence, unlike GBU (I don't really count Maria)...I do agree, Steve, that this thread has been great fun, and it has been the highest grossing thread of all time, by a very wide margin...the acting in Unforgiven is better because it is much more subtle, layered, intricate, poignant, complex, guilt-ridden, egotistical, and morally ambiguous...there are such a wide-range of emotions and feelings that are conveyed by all of the characters...Will Munny, Little Bill Daggett, Ned Logan, English Bob, the Schofield Kid, Strawberry Alice, Delilah,W.W. Beauchamp, Davey Boy, Quick Mike, even foreshadowing Sally Two-Trees, Will's nervous kids, Davey's frightened fellow cowboys, Daggett's young marshalls...every performance is just exquisite...looking at GBU, Clint is great at portraying the "Man with No Name," Van Cleef is great at portraying Angel Eyes, and Wallach is just unbelievable and tremendously memorable as Tuco...but there's not much complexity, depth, intricacy, or poignancy to it all...even Tuco, for all of his different expressions and constant energy, isn't very complex...there isn't mcuh moral ambiguity, not of the kind in Unforgiven...the acting in GBU is brilliant for what it's goal is, but it just doesn't appraoch the refinement, subtlety, complexity, and ambiguity of the performances in Unforgiven...in GBU, we have the good, the bad, and the ugly...it's great, but it's not all that complex...in Unforgiven, we just have different people, different characters, different motives, different emotions, none of whom or which are very good or very bad...all of whom and which have their strengths and weaknesses, points that can be admired and points that can be abhorred...someone like Will Munny, for example...he can seem so full of morality and behave so tenderly towards Delilah, yet he becomes drawn into murdering the two cowboys, and then being so immoral in the end, and guilt-ridden, feverish, on the verge of dying, eventually accepting who he is, instinctively returning to his old self in a more terrible form than ever, it just goes on and on...Little Bill, on the one hand he has good morals and good ambitions, but he carries it all too far without ever realizing it until it's too late, if he ever does...Ned Logan, a man who is truly reformed, and doesn't realize the consequences of his regeneration until he's forced to confront murder again, at which point he becomes incredibly guilty and traumatized...English Bob, looking so confident and majestic, until Little Bill cruelly and easily reveals him to be a fraud, a coward, and a wimp...Beauchamp, how he keeps trying to latch on from one legend to the next, looking to create even greater myths, yet he too understands terror, as when Daggett is beating Ned, and fear, at the end when he confronts Munny...Delilah, how she should be the most vengeful person in the whole film, yet is so poignant and just wants to forget about everything in her efforts to heal her scars...Strawberry Alice, with her extreme vengeance and her refusal to allow the whores to succumb to Big Whiskey's sexism...the Schofield Kid, perfectly representing the macho qualities that are so prevalent in our society, and viewing him disintigrate when he learns about the truths and consequences of the myth that he wants to live...Will's kids, respresenting a bit of fear about their father and his past, and who the man really is...Davey, wrought by guilt over something that he didn't do, and not deserving to die, terrified by the fact that he is needessly dying...I mean, just that entire scene...that scene alone just has so much more to it as far as depth and moral ambiguity than all of GBU...the performances in GBU are great, and it's pointless to compare because the objectives were different, but there simply is not that level of complexity, and the way that one can just talk and write about Unforgiven forever because it's so rich and has such a brilliant script...as for GBU warming the soul, it's a pretty dettached film...what character can a normal person really relate to as far as real life is concerned?...Unforgiven deals with real emotion, real people, real pain, and real suffering, and people can relate to that...Unforgiven touches and reaches the soul...all of that said, Unforgiven is also a very entertainging film...I find it to be infinitely engrossing as well...and there is plenty of humor...the film is also so poetic...it doesn't play glumly at all (as is the case in Firefox), and there is just a gentle and effotless poetic quality to the film...The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is great, especially for what it is, but one can only say so much about it...one can never stop talking and writing about Unforgiven...it is infinitely rich, complex, and fascinating...my opinion is pretty objective, for I am not alone...KC, Holden, CR, and others all share my sentiments...it was also an incredible critical and commercial success...Unforgiven is one of the greatest films of all time, and many people believe that, regardless of whether or not they are an Eastwood fan...I'm talking about critics, fans, whomever...GBU is a great western, but it is not one of the greatest films of all time, not even close, and unless one is an Eastwood or Leone fans, one would never even consider it...you love GBU, and that's great...but Unforgiven is just much, much, much, much better...that's not just me talking, that's many of this board's most knowledgable members speaking, fans of all types speaking, and critics across the globe speaking...ultimately, it's the truth

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GMAT
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