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Author Topic: The Outlaw J.W. - Pale Rider connection.  (Read 7959 times)
futureactor
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« on: July 01, 2014, 12:03:10 AM »

So when I was 6 years old my Dad takes me to see Josey Wales.  9 years later we both go see Pale Rider.  I was 15 and got more out of it than when I was 6.  But have been trying to tie them together and prove that Pale Rider is an unofficial sequel.
There are a few things like 10 Bears calls Josey "Grey Rider" a lot like Pale Rider.  I was looking for the scar on the Preacher's face that Josey got during the raid on his family and thought I saw it in Pale Rider.
Then I noticed Bloody Bill Anderson and he has a very small existence in Josey Wales.  Bloody Bill was played by John Russell who played Marshall Stockburn in Pale Rider.  At the end of P.R. Stockburn gets a good look at the Preacher and says "YOU".  Stockburn has to be Bloody Bill Anderson.

Some have suggested that High Plains Drifter was somehow a sequel too.  Maybe thats it.  Josey Wales is part 1.  High Plains Drifter is part 2. and Pale Rider is part 3.

What do ya think?
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 12:24:49 AM »

futureactor that is an interesting theory but in my opinion not valid. They are three movies that stand alone. Clint often uses the same actors in different movies but that doesn't necessarily follow that the movies are linked.

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The Schofield Kid
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 12:35:23 AM »

  Josey Wales is part 1.  High Plains Drifter is part 2. and Pale Rider is part 3.

What do ya think?

High Plains Drifter was made before The Outlaw Josey Wales.
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futureactor
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 12:38:47 AM »

I know HPD was filmed first, but some people want to consider it a sequel to J.W.  But what year was HPD set in, and what year was J.W. set in and PR.  That would be the ultimate artsy move and would take a lot of forethought by Clint.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 08:35:41 PM »

futureactor, you may be interested in this post by long-time Board member D'Ambrosia:

http://www.clinteastwood.org/forums/index.php?topic=2303.msg31168#msg31168 ;)
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futureactor
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 11:04:14 PM »

I'll go for that, he can just add in Bloody Bill Anderson changing his name to Stockburn.  ^-^


He says that HPD is set in the year 1882, some say Pale Rider is set in the early 1870's, but the type of gold mining that they are doing in Pale Rider wasn't utilized until the mid 1880's so HPD could have very well been part 2 of my 3 part theory. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:09:09 PM by futureactor » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 11:24:44 PM »

Hmm, trouble is ... Bloody Bill and Josey are on the same side. ;)
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futureactor
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 01:16:59 AM »

Hmm, trouble is ... Bloody Bill and Josey are on the same side. ;)

Fletcher was on the same side too, but like Patty Garrett, hunted JW.
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 10:05:51 AM »

I also don't buy any connection between the three films/characters.  Obviously, there is that avenging angel/soul of the Clint character in both HPD and PR.... but that is as far as I think the similarity with the films go.  And to me, all 3 characters have very different personalities.
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The Man With No Aim
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2014, 12:50:54 AM »

So when I was 6 years old my Dad takes me to see Josey Wales.  9 years later we both go see Pale Rider.  I was 15 and got more out of it than when I was 6.  But have been trying to tie them together and prove that Pale Rider is an unofficial sequel.
There are a few things like 10 Bears calls Josey "Grey Rider" a lot like Pale Rider.  I was looking for the scar on the Preacher's face that Josey got during the raid on his family and thought I saw it in Pale Rider.
Then I noticed Bloody Bill Anderson and he has a very small existence in Josey Wales.  Bloody Bill was played by John Russell who played Marshall Stockburn in Pale Rider.  At the end of P.R. Stockburn gets a good look at the Preacher and says "YOU".  Stockburn has to be Bloody Bill Anderson.

Some have suggested that High Plains Drifter was somehow a sequel too.  Maybe thats it.  Josey Wales is part 1.  High Plains Drifter is part 2. and Pale Rider is part 3.

What do ya think?


It is extremely interesting to think of possible connections between the Eastwood Westerns. I sometimes do it too.

Josey Wales does seem to happen during and pretty soon after the Civil War, the early 1870s at the latest. One dating device is the guns; they are all germane to the late 1860s and early 1870s at the latest.

In terms of your idea, recall that Josey Wales DID NOT end with Bloody Bill pumping 6 bullets into Josey Wales' back. The movie ended with Josey and Bill on edgy but apparently mutually agreeable terms.

In Pale Rider the Preacher's gun was a Remington of the era prior to the advent of the Schofield in late 1870s. However all of the gunplay DID NOT produce the voluminous clouds of smoke typical of gunfire prior to the widespread use of smokeless powder beginning in 1892. The mining activities could be considered more typical of the 1870s than the later 1890s. If the premise was that the Preacher was a Wraith Ghost then it would be fitting that he would use his old gun AND OLD SMOKEY CARTRIDGES. The crooks guns made no smoke. But neither did Preacher's gun. Therefore we might date the film to be set in 1892 or later.

Is Stockbridge 20 years or more older than Bill?   


PS.....I own a Blondie gun, a 1851 Navy Colt. It makes a big cloud of smoke with every shot. Once upon a time, I was shooting at a public shooting range. Next to me was a man and his two children. I fired my Blondie gun, and one of the kids exclaimed..."Look at all the smoke and sparks!"
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 12:58:01 AM by The Man With No Aim » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2014, 10:04:10 AM »

"Bloody Bill" Anderson dies during the war, at the end of the opening credits sequence of The Outlaw Josey Wales. The character who joins with the forces pursuing Wales after the war (a fictional character, unlike the historical Anderson) is called Fletcher (played by John Vernon).
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futureactor
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2014, 02:07:42 PM »

Also the Marshall's name is Stockburn, not Stockbridge. 
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futureactor
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 03:14:28 PM »

"Bloody Bill" Anderson dies during the war, at the end of the opening credits sequence of The Outlaw Josey Wales. The character who joins with the forces pursuing Wales after the war (a fictional character, unlike the historical Anderson) is called Fletcher (played by John Vernon).

The scene where Bloody Bill Anderson is left behind because he is wounded doesn't show him dying.  Is there a manuscript or a book that says Bloody Bill actually dies, cause' if he did actually die in that scene my whole theory is null and void.
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 04:47:52 PM »

I am quite sure the character "Bloody Bill" dies in the opening credits sequence, and I am 100% sure that the actor John Russell is never again seen onscreen in Josey Wales.
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 09:47:19 PM »

I am quite sure the character "Bloody Bill" dies in the opening credits sequence, and I am 100% sure that the actor John Russell is never again seen onscreen in Josey Wales.

I reckon that I was confusing Fletcher with Bloody Bill.

But to be concise: NOBODY pumped 6 bullets into Josey's back during the time Josey was on screen. So Preacher must have picked up those bullets and scars somewhere else than in the Josey Wales movie.

Bloody Bill recruited Josey after the Red Socks killed his family and burned his house down. This was BEFORE the opening screen credits? I presently can only find my DVDs that I don't care about finding. I am not finding any of them that I want to find. So I am, at the moment, unable to watch the movie and refresh my memory. If any of you could see how cluttered and unkempt my house is you wouldn't believe it. The inside, I mean. The outside could pass for normal. 
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2014, 09:52:26 PM »

The scene where Bloody Bill Anderson is left behind because he is wounded doesn't show him dying.  Is there a manuscript or a book that says Bloody Bill actually dies, cause' if he did actually die in that scene my whole theory is null and void.


What film is your avatar from? It is a cool pic and I just can't place it.

Sorry, but your whole theory is shot full of holes on much more than one basis.
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 12:22:52 AM »


What film is your avatar from? It is a cool pic and I just can't place it.

Sorry, but your whole theory is shot full of holes on much more than one basis.

I am pretty sure futureactor is using a scene from The Gauntlet as his avatar.


I must agree with you MWNA, the theory futureactor puts forward is definitely off track.   
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futureactor
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 11:27:00 PM »


What film is your avatar from? It is a cool pic and I just can't place it.

Sorry, but your whole theory is shot full of holes on much more than one basis.
Yeah, the Avater is from the Gauntlet.  I think the scene is the one where the biker says "That's my chopper Charlie" and Clint says "This is my gun Clide.".
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futureactor
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2014, 11:29:12 PM »

I am quite sure the character "Bloody Bill" dies in the opening credits sequence, and I am 100% sure that the actor John Russell is never again seen onscreen in Josey Wales.
Are you "quite sure" that Bloody Bill dies, or do they leave him sitting up against that tree still alive?  Are we left to assume, or is it a definite death?  It doesn't matter that we don't see John Russell again during the movie, but it doesn't mean he is dead either.  But we do see him in Pale Rider saying "YOU!"  to The Preacher. 
Maybe Bloody Bill didn't die but Joins up with Fletcher who goes to Mexico to look for Josey Wales.  Fletcher never made it clear that he was going to stop looking for Josey but rather give him a chance to get away, or a head start.

Fletcher's motive to keep looking for Josey is simple, it's a sure ongoing payday for him.  What better to get paid for looking for someone you know you will never find, or even want to, and maybe Bloody Bill joins Fletcher.   You can't put that kind of thing past Fletcher's character since he sold out in the first place.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2014, 12:03:42 AM »

I would assume he was dead by his appearance, by the freezing of his gesture as he reaches to touch Josey, and by the gestures, expressions and body language of both Josey and Fletcher. But if that doesn't convince you, and you also consider the historical record irrelevant in a fiction film ... (It's here by the way: http://shs.umsystem.edu/historicmissourians/name/a/anderson/ )

... there is this, from Forrest Carter's Gone to Texas (the source novel for The Outlaw Josey Wales, under which title it was later marketed):

Quote
As the tide of the Confederacy ebbed toward defeat, the blue uniforms multiplied along the Border. The ranks of the "boys" began to thin. On October 26, 1864, Bloody Bill died with two smoking pistols in his hands.
(Page 9 in the 1989 University of New Mexico Press edition)

Or if you prefer Phil Kaufman's script, my copy is dated 9/10/75. On pages 10-11 is Scene 11, a montage sequence, which was used as the opening credits sequence.

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This sequence will take us through the war. It includes ...

7 ) still of Bloody Bill dying in Josey's arms: a pieta,
8 ) Josey now the leader of the riders ...
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