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Author Topic: Josey Wales vs. Unforgiven  (Read 45938 times)
vik
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« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2004, 03:02:38 AM »

disagree

you are making up points that anybody can make about films - power of a film etc. - big words - nothing you cannot say about josey wales

the limit to unforgiven its just one place one time and revolves around a tyrant of a sheriff and man going nowhere

outlaw josey wales is bigger than that and emcompasses more and josey is a man going somewhere

or you can say munny really only thinks about himself and josey has grown to look beyond himself

i know arguably that munny is looking out for ned but eventually its just munny and what he has set out to do
after getting a pasting by the sheriff

so you can't really compare one is the mercenary west the other is the settling of the west
« Last Edit: April 29, 2004, 04:05:31 AM by vik » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2004, 08:43:09 AM »

I think you need to ask the guy at the top left corner of your screen and see which one he thinks is the better..... ;)
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vik
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« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2004, 08:46:57 AM »

see ask clint a question  :P

of course i already know the answer  ;)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2004, 08:47:17 AM by vik » Logged

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robluvsnic
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« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2004, 05:09:05 PM »

Thanks, KC :)

... nothing you cannot say about josey wales

I totally agree. Like I said, in another time and place I'd be singing the praises of Josey Wales.

Maybe the problem comes down to the idea that we have to choose -- that one has to be better than the other (or even that, if not, then they must be equal). Maybe it's the very goal of comparison and competition that leads us to try to pick a winner between the films, when there's no real need to.

Then again, without the challenge of comparing and choosing between the two, I'd never get to hear vik's spirited defence of the worth of Josey Wales, and I'd never get inspired by vik's passion, and so I might never revisit Josey Wales with the aim of getting all the joy out of the film that vik does. :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2004, 05:10:43 PM by robluvsnic » Logged
Philo Beddoe Jr
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« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2004, 05:20:07 PM »

robluvsnic

My appreciation for films has changed at different periods in my life.  When I was 20 I had no time for the Bogart films I had seen.  Now I think he is the best!

So what about this factor with Clint films?  I am less of a 'complete' admirer than I was at 20, but whilst some of my old favourites may not be the 'be all and end all' of films that they once were to me, I now appreciate them more than ever, because I can get a LOT more out of them.  Including Unforgiven and Josey Wales.

So there you go... there is a good side to getting older!

WKC.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2004, 05:21:23 PM by wkc » Logged

Doug
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« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2004, 05:29:18 PM »

To tell you the truth, it's been quite some time since I've seen either. There's a power to Unforgiven that seems unmatched in most modern films that I've seen.


Exactly my viewpoint.  Unforgiven is the better film, but I can understand anyone's viewpoint that they find OJW more entertaining or more their favorite.  And no matter how "deep" a movie is, you aren't going to find a lot of value in it if you don't care for it.  For me Unforgiven is so powerful I can't imagine anyone not reacting to it, but obviously it's true.  Josey Wales has some good themes in it and some real things to say, but it is in no way as mature and complete as Unforgiven.  And quite a few of the one-liners are silly, though it does have good dialogue, too, just nothing that matches Unforgiven's.  And the scene where they kill Davey is as powerful as any in modern film, and there's no scene in OJW that can match it.  OJW is much more of a fun movie, no question about it, and Unforgiven is far more serious, penetrating, and disturbing.  With some truly funny moments in it, as well ... all of which make it the masterpiece it is.
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2004, 06:00:52 AM »


 And no matter how "deep" a movie is, you aren't going to find a lot of value in it if you don't care for it.

Well done Doug .

That is exactly how I feel about Unforgiven.


Philo .
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Christopher
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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2004, 08:30:27 AM »

i never saw josey as an adventure - i see unforgiven as a violent movie (disturbing? many films are like that - true cliche) and a sheriff who's justice ain't justice at all - and i could go on but unforgiven was discussed a while back

alot of people think josey wales should have got oscars and it was the establishment who didn't award them to an independent - if it had got the oscars it deserved it would have been up there with unforgiven in peoples minds
I wouldn't say Unforgiven was cliched because it was disturbing. Afterall, it's a disturbing western, how many of those do we have?

I agree that Josey was quite deserving of some nominations that year, and most likely Eastwood is right, it would have probably gotten some had he done it a little later. But I think I've also heard that Orson Welles said that after a few viewings of Josey Wales, he felt it was up with the westerns of John Ford and Howard Hawkes (? - I think I remember reading it was Hawkes). To me, that's much more impressive than any number of Oscars. Orson Welles thought the movie was brilliant!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2004, 08:31:15 AM by Christopher » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2004, 11:41:59 AM »

Yeah, I know Welles wasn't around to see Unforgiven. I bet he would have liked it too. ;)
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vik
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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2004, 11:49:17 AM »

better than josey wales  ;D

don't answer that one
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2004, 11:58:00 AM »

because presumely its the violence that is disturbing and deep and powerful ?
I think the way violence is handled is what makes it powerful. Eastwood goes pretty much head-on with the violence in Unforgiven. I'm not making any comparison to Josey right now.

Like, if you look at a modern action movie that's violent, you'd most likely not say it was powerful. Such as a movie like Die Hard or something like that. Die Hard is probably one of the best action movies in recent years (I know, it's what, fifteen years old now?), but I don't think anybody would say the violence in it was powerful or disturbing, but I do remember the movie being violent.
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2004, 04:21:41 PM »

BTW, I read about what Orson Welles said on Half.com's page for Josey Wales.
Quote
Orson Welles, in an appearance on the MERV GRIFFIN SHOW, said of THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, "When I saw that picture for the fourth time, I realized that it belongs with the great Westerns. You know, the great Westerns of Ford and Hawks and people like that."...
Since it actually says where he made the statement, I'd guess it was reliable. The statement impresses me because Welles was a brilliant filmmaker himself, so I think it means a lot more coming from him.
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2004, 05:52:08 PM »

I just watched Unforgiven. It has been a while since I watched it, and I was just like "Wow!". That was an incredible film. It was just incredible.

Josey Wales is a great movie in its own right, but Unforgiven just takes the cake. It's an absolutely brilliant movie. I enjoyed it immensely and thought it was not neccessarily better than Josey Wales, but that all of the characters were deeper, even the author and English Bob. That is what clinches this film over Josey Wales. The characters are so much deeper and you see them develop of the course of the movie. In Josey Wales, I don't think you see nearly as much character development with a few exceptions. The characters in Josey Wales seem to be slightly shallower.
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Matt
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2004, 08:20:16 AM »

I love both films, but I put Unforgiven above OJW too. I think what makes Unforgiven better in my mind is along the lines of what Washingtonian said.... better character development. With the exception of Josey and Lone Watie, the characters in Josey never seem to come alive for me as do the characters in Unforgiven. Compare the antagonists in both films: Little Bill vs. Terrill and the Redlegs. There's no comparison between how much better drawn Little Bill is, how well we get to know and understand him, how much he seems like someone we could really know.  We can empathize with the characters in Unforgiven because their motivations and reactions are so "real"; the characters are never all good or all bad, they're people like us...  we can identify with them more because they're more human.

And so it goes down the line for nearly the entire cast of each movie. I enjoy the performance of Sam Bottoms as Jamie in OJW, but Ned is a deeper character, and at least in my mind... easier to identify with. Compare supporting characters like English Bob and W.W. Beauchamp to Ten Bears, Little Moonlight, etc. Same there. Even though Sondra Locke as Laura Lee in OJW has much more screen time than Anna Thomson as Delilah in Unforgiven, I actually care about Delilah and what happened to her. Laura Lee just annoys me (and no, that's not a knock on Sondra Locke, I've praised other performances of hers. It's more about the character than Sondra) and I never was touched by her character's plight at all.  And some of the characters in OJW seem more like caricatures than real people (Rose, the Carpetbagger, Sim Carstairs), whereas every character in Unforgiven seems like someone I could know.

I think the same thing could be said comparing more than just the casts, but the stories as well. OJW is an epic western; it's absolutely beautiful and is very enjoyable to watch. I like the story too, and I like the little touches of humor through the film, but there's never a moment that I feel as though I've been picked up and planted within the scenes of the film. I always know that I'm watching a western, and a great one at that. But with Unforgiven, for those two hours that I watch it, I feel as though I've been transported back in time to be there in Big Whiskey with them... it feels that real. And being "there" with them, everything about the film becomes more personal. And that's where the strength and power comes from; not so much the realism of each scene, or each character, but the ability we have to identify with those characters and feel the film on a personal level.
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Doug
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2004, 09:45:30 PM »

by the way doug  death doesn't have to be the biggest impact on any one ....
Well, Vik, you're making a conclusion about what I think when I never stated any such thing.

As for the whole quote:
by the way doug  death doesn't have to be the biggest impact on any one - josey is about life- the first and last scenes of josey to me is as powerful as some fool who should never have started out on a childish adventure and then realised he shouldn't have been there - he got what he deserved - i think ned's death is the worse - truly racist and sadist

sorry i don't see nothing penetrating about the death of a young fool - no different to those who take a car full of kids and kill them because they are showing off

and you can probably say to munny there is nothing like an old fool - but then with a bit off luck he did change and being a pig farmer for the rest of his life wouldn't have suited him


So you're saying that death means nothing to you?  Wow, that's scary.  Granted, we watch people killed all the time on screen and think it's cool (i.e. The Outlaw Josey Wales) but when a movie can remind you that hey, death is real and it's not cool then I give that movie credit.  And it's not Davey's death that ultimately is so important, but the effect it's having on Ned, Munny, and the near-sighted Kid who thinks this is all cool, because he can't really see anything -- kind of like us viewers, huh?  I guess that's all cliched.  Well, I'll take that cliche anyday.  It's that kind of depth that makes Unforgiven a work of art.   It can be pondered and pondered, with new meanings and insights emerging every time -- as has been shown with the posts on this board.    

As for the scene I chose to mention, I could have named the "We all have it comin'..." scene as one of the more powerful in modern cinema.  Because Unforgiven has a few that stand out.  There's no death or violence in that scene, but the scene is a classic in every way.

You conclude that because I love Unforgiven and because Unforgiven is "violent" that I think a movie must be violent to be great is...totally wrong.  (Just wanted to point out an obvious case of circular logic.)

And to Matt: Good post.
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« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2004, 12:05:34 AM »

Doug - I asked why it was so powerful  - matt gave a good rounded discussion you had to jump after him to get at me - just because i prefer josey wales

just because philo doesn't care for unforgiven you presume other people can't and they can't discuss the merits of two films

Look at the post it's all your CONCLUSIONS - nothing there i said jumps to any conclusions and i didn't use the word once

i still prefer the life in josey wales - unforgiven comes a close second and what matt said unforgiven did to him transport him to the movie josey does for me

josey was called an adventure i was trying to say i don't see that the story of unforgiven is that different

matt is right maybe the imagery is there but that doesn't mean the josey story is any weaker the films are different and are difficult to compare

for most scenes you mention in unforgiven i will mention one in josey - but that wasn't the point

christopher talked about the power of violence and thats what i was asking about why it was powerful was it the violence - no says matt there is more to the movie - fair enough

thats DISCUSSION

what you said above is your CONCLUSIONS
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 11:07:43 AM by Matt » Logged

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philo
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2004, 04:53:59 AM »


From Vik :
just because philo doesn't care for unforgiven you presume other people can't and they can't discuss the merits of two films


I was just pleased that Doug could put so well, how I felt.

Maybe it was because I was a teenager (time does play a part in these things) but I was on the edge of my seat watching Josey (in the cinema which is also worth noting). I cared about what happened to those characters.
I also think the end sequence and the return of Fletcher offers more in those few minutes than anything Unforgiven can offer. The end of Josey is just .... moving and totally real.

As usual just my thoughts

Philo .
 
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« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2004, 09:47:05 AM »

Vik ... I apologize.  I did not mean to upset you.  I will not post any more here since it does upset you.  For the record I also enjoyed reading why philo enjoys OJW.  I love that movie too, I just don't .... nevermind.  
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« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2004, 12:11:12 PM »

Vik and Doug, I think both of you have contributed a lot to this discussion, but when you express a strong opinion on a controversial subject, you really have to expect people will make strong statements in return. I hope both of you will continue posting your thoughts here.

Everyone else, thanks for your thoughts, and your contributions to this thread, which is really one of the better discussions we've had lately. Please keep it civil ... and keep it going!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 12:42:59 PM by KC » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2004, 12:58:16 PM »

I think the message about the Indians in Josey Wales is much more important than the message about killing in Unforgiven.

Racism is one of the main causes of crime yet today and it is all through Josey Wales- not just the Indians, but also about why the war was fought in the first place.

Yes, Josey was a Confederate soldier and the Confederacy were pro-slavery, but the Union soldiers murdered Josey's family. Which is worse?????

Both are examples of the racism which still exists today; the racism which leads to a lot of violence. Hell, how many Indians were killed by whites from the 1500s until the mid-1900s????????
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 12:59:26 PM by Adam S. » Logged

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