Man with no name chronoligy

[cigar joe]

Clint is definitely cranking, and if I remember right it looks like a cylinder magazine on top. Its one of the Gattlings, you see a similar on at the Battle of Langstone Bridge in GBU.

[GuardianAngel]

D'Amb, it almost has to be 1866, or possibly 1865. We know Hogan served in the American Civil War ... assuming he didn't desert, that would place it after April 1865 ... and, because the French still control the country, before the execution of Maximilian in June 1867. Because it takes place around Bastille Day it would have to be either July 1865 or July1866.

When in the movie do they talk about "June 15th"? 

Good point there about the Cinco De Mayo and the June 15th.. that is odd that being weeks apart.. the Mexicans should have already put an end to that war.

I haven't watched the movie for a few weeks, but I think I recall them discussing June 15th as the date Sister Sara said the French army got drunk, which would be perfect timing for a sneak attack for Hogan and the Mexican people. Correct me if I'm wrong here.. haven't watched it in a while... can't remember exactly off the top of my head.. lol

[KC]

No, the date the French Army got drunk (the year before) was July 14. That is Bastille Day, the French national holiday since the Paris mob stormed the royal fortress-prison, the Bastille, in 1789.

[D'Ambrosia]

I must have been confused.  I think I meant July 15th not June 15th.  

But anyway, Hogans gun is a peacemaker, no doubt about it, which we know weren't manufactured until 1873...

So it's safe to say that if we are going with the movie taking place in July 1865 or 1866, that based on my theory of weapon historical accuracy, the time placement solely on the gun doesn't fit for Two Mules...

[GuardianAngel]

Good catch there KC.. and my mistake.. 

[Concorde]

Chiming in VERY late here, but I must say I've been fascinating by the discussion of the timeline on TWO MULES. Looks like you folks straightened it out.

Regarding both the DOLLARS chronology and the question of weapons-dating in TWO MULES, two very important factors which nobody seems to have considered are:

1.) What props did the filmmakers have available?

and

2.) What props are safe for the actors to fire repeatedly onscreen?

Regarding #1, my guess is that when the time came to shoot Ramon's machine-gunning scene in FISTFUL, Leone knew full well that he should be using a hand-crank Gatling gun...but all he had available to use was an anachronistic full-auto version. (American western movie filmmakers had access to much better stocks of props then and now, which is why the similar scene in JOSEY WALES uses a hand-crank gun much closer to being period-correct, though still "off" by a few years.) Later when Leone was better known and had more access, he was able to raid a museum for the hand-crank guns seen in THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY.

Regarding #2, many times an anachronistic gun is used in a movie sceen simply because it's easier/faster to use a reliable, time-tested prop for which proper blank rounds are available than it is to train actors to use an unfamiliar, hard-to-load/reload gun that's finicky about ammunition. This just a matter of being practical when on location with the clock running and money being wasted while well-paid people stand around waiting.

The most notoriously mis-used incorrect gun is the Winchester Model 92 lever-action rifle, which is what Ramon and his men carry in FISTFUL. This was a new model for 1892 but it is often seen in films set much earlier, and frequently pops up in Civil War movies (supposed set from 1861-1865). John Wayne's famous rifle with the big lever-loop was a 92, and he carries it in THE COMANCHEROS (which begins before the Civil War), THE SEARCHERS (right after the Civil War) and both THE UNDEFEATED & RIO LOBO (both set during and immediately after the Civil War).

WHY?

Simply because the Model 92 has a very, very slick, forgiving action (designed by John Browning) and it will easily, reliably chamber & fire a wide assortment of cheap, safe, readily available blank cartridges!

I can't stress enough how IMPORTANT a factor this is when a movie is in production and every second of delay costs hundreds or thousands of dollars. Many filmmakers who definitely "knew better" have used the "wrong" guns simply because, for example, any Hollywood prop house can easily supply a rack of Winchester 92s and a case of blanks for them, and any western movie actor can easily use these tools convincingly onscreen.

[KC]

Interesting post, Concorde, thanks! That was one factor I hadn't thought of.

[D'Ambrosia]

The most notoriously mis-used incorrect gun is the Winchester Model 92 lever-action rifle, which is what Ramon and his men carry in FISTFUL. This was a new model for 1892 but it is often seen in films set much earlier, and frequently pops up in Civil War movies (supposed set from 1861-1865). John Wayne's famous rifle with the big lever-loop was a 92, and he carries it in THE COMANCHEROS (which begins before the Civil War), THE SEARCHERS (right after the Civil War) and both THE UNDEFEATED & RIO LOBO (both set during and immediately after the Civil War).

WHY?

Simply because the Model 92 has a very, very slick, forgiving action (designed by John Browning) and it will easily, reliably chamber & fire a wide assortment of cheap, safe, readily available blank cartridges!

Funny you mention that Concord cause I had just caught that Ramon uses a '92 in an earlier post in this thread...

I thought I’d go back and look at the Machine Gun Ramon uses to see if I could place the type.  In doing that particular bit of research, I noticed Rubio, Ramone’s unsung rifle thrower, doing his best imitation of Walter Brenner to John Wayne rifle toss, and this made me think, well what if I could date Ramon’s Winchester.  So that is exactly what I did and it was not until I viewed every single scene with Ramon with the rifle and thought I wasn’t going to be able to date it when, at the very end, the clues were there(much to my dismay) and as it turns out, Ramon’s Winchester is indeed a Model 1892.  So now I just don’t know what to think(pulling hair out)… 

 

[Concorde]

D'Ambrosia, I'm sure you can get the exact numbers and dates for us, but wasn't the Winchester Model 92 in production well into the 20th Century? I'm thinking it was probably manufactured well into the 1920s or 30s.

It was eventually superceded by the Winchester Model 94, first introduced for the year 1894 and in continuous production ever since), but the '94 was not as forgiving about ammo and tended to jam when used with black-powder blanks. The '94 was actually the first lever-gun ever designed specifically for the higher pressures of "smokeless" powder, whereas the '92 was one of the last designed for the lower pressure black powder.

Hollywood western movie blanks are black powder by definition. Black powder is both period-correct and it looks better on film -- giving nice thick plumes of smoke, which are easy for the sound editor to synch up with various pre-recorded gunshot sounds. For these reasons, the Model 92 was the preferred prop rifle for movies during most of the 20th Century.

Uh-oh....this is turning into the "Clint's Guns" thread!!!